The Knife Amnesty in the UK....the repercussions for edged weapons collectors

kronckew · 28th June 2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

... I would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

there are already anti-carry laws here:

rant on:

you can legitimately carry a folding knife with a blade UNDER 3 inches, as long as it is not a lock knife, ie. if it's more likely to hurt you than someone else it's probably OK. swords are already illegal 'offensive' weapons that can't be carried off your own property without valid reasons (like re-enactment fairs, etc.)

anything over three inches, or fixed blades of any kind can be carried if you have a legitimate use for them, ie while on a hunting/fishing trip, just don't stop off at the grocery on the way. the police get to decide if it is legitimate or not, not you. you may need to spend a few thousand proving it in court.

push daggers, sword canes, gravity & switch blades, as well as balisongs are already prohibited 'offensive' weapons & are illegal to sell, buy, trade, or loan - you can keep any you have as long as it stays on your property & you never actually use it.

ANYTHING is considered an offensive weapon if you actually use it to defend yourself, even if it is legal to own otherwise. a man here confronted by an aggressive burglar in his kitchen picked up a steak knife & stabbed the burglar. the homeowner was arrested & went to jail for possession of an offensive weapon. canes, bats, chair legs, rolled up newspapers, sticks, are all 'offensive' weapons if used as a weapon, there is no such thing as a defensive weapon.

most of the knives turned in on the 'amnesty' were perfectly legal kitchen knives, with a sprinkling of outrageous 'fantasy' hibben style wierdo's (which of course are the ones they show on TV news). the police here love these political happenings as they can sort out the antiques and sell them on ebay to suppliment their income. my (ex) father in law, an ex-royal navy officer, had a beutiful pair of blued and gold inlayed german hunting swords he'd liberated from a german e-boat captain in ww2 that i had hoped he would leave to me, but he turned them in in another of these 'amnesties' back in the 70's - didn't do any good then, won't make a bit of difference now.

they got rid of private ownership of fire-arms (politicians exempt of course) and wonder why gun crime is up, now they'll come up with more 'urgent' anti-knife legislation to 'protect' us from ourselves. looks good to appear to be doing something, even if it hasn't a hope of actually doing anything to cure the original problem.

it is basically illegal to defend yourself in the UK under any circumstance. there are statutes supposedly allowing 'reasonable' force when defending yourself, but the police & the judiciary seem to feel that if a burglar breaks in & has a baseball bat, it is unreasonable to shoot him with a shotgun. if he attempts to beat you to a pulp, it is unreasonable to pick up a lamp & hit him with it, heaven forbid an old lady hit a thug with her walker, she'd be jailed for life.

what we are supposed to do is wait till the perp has finished doing whatever he intended, and if you survive, you call the police. they will assign a case number an send a team out to take details at some later safe time, to ensure the police are not in danger. people are routinely told that the police won't come out on such petty crimes as cars being broken into or 'simple' burglaries or B&E's as there is nothing they can do anyway.

there was a woman here who bled out after being attacked because the 'armed response' team was not sure the perp was'nt still in the house, so they waited an hour before believing the other survivors who had fled who said hge had gone already, they then went in & surprise - no perp, just a dead woman.

anyway, it's not politically correct to be in favor of armed citizenry here due to the extensive brain-washing. i am of course, considered odd for collecting edged weapons and am asked all they time why i would have such dangerous horrible demon devices....tho i am allowed a certain leeway as i am an american and we are known to be gun-totin' knife weilding crazies anyhow.

now you know why the UK never wins anything at olympic shooting or fencing events.

rant off.

Rivkin · 28th June 2006, 04:23 PM

I can offer just my personal experience - I went to school in slums. During my stay there 4 students were killed - one was stabbed, one had his brains blown out by a hammer, two were tied up and thrown from the 9th floor.
Trust me, you don't need a knife to kill someone - screwdriver or hammer work great. There are also tons of other possibilities, like heavy belt buckles, socks with pennies and piano strings for true weirdos. Otherwise, like it happened with me, you can just take someone and smash his head into a heater.

For some biological reasons violance is rather exciting and on some level is quite pleasant, altough the taste is an acquired one. Unfortunately, with the life of most people in slums being rather dull and gloomy, drugs, alcohol and violence is what people resort to.

katana · 28th June 2006, 04:58 PM

Violence is latent in all of us, to a degree the ability to attack / defend yourself is instinctive, its only circumstances and an individual ability to control their emotions that ensures that there is less violence.
Chimpanzees, have for years, been considered fairly peaceful vegetarians.....but that was far the truth. Anthropologists and zoologists have discovered, by observation that Chimpanzee's can be incredibly violent, they have the capacity to seek revenge, gain power or to bully.
Occasionally they hunt for meat, usually a small monkey; the hunting party will capture the animal and literally rip it apart, with great excitement and 'blood lust'.

Seeing that the genetic make-up of a chimp is one of the closest to Man, we can see our 'true' selves after our emotional / educated sophistication has been stripped away.
Articles used to injure/maim/kill are many and varied, as has already been stated everyday items have / are used. The source of the problems with violent attacks is not the weapons used. It is the inability of individuals to control themselves and in societies where stress is dramatically increasing....this lack of control would, surely, increase dramatically.........

mross · 28th June 2006, 05:08 PM

I am on a Nihonto list and one of the members is meeting with "John Reid (Home Sec) at the Home Office, to discuss the proposed ban on "Samurai Swords". " I will let you know what information I can. I suspect though that a good model to gleen information from as to what will happen is the UK gun ban. As others have said it is not about effective crime control it's politics.

katana · 28th June 2006, 08:14 PM

I found this site thought it relavent

http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php

Aqtai · 28th June 2006, 08:55 PM

I don't think this applies to collectors. For starters we don't carry our blades around. Mine are in a box in my study waiting to be mounted on the wall. And we certainly don't go around stabbing people. This law is for yobs who stab teenagers in front of schools etc.

Saying that I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and they had an exhibit of amnestied bladed objects, and among the usual homemade knives, modern hunting knives etc was an antique cavalry sabre...

mross · 28th June 2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

I don't think this applies to collectors. For starters we don't carry our blades around. Mine are in a box in my study waiting to be mounted on the wall. And we certainly don't go around stabbing people. This law is for yobs who stab teenagers in front of schools etc.

Saying that I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and they had an exhibit of amnestied bladed objects, and among the usual homemade knives, modern hunting knives etc was an antique cavalry sabre...

Please take note of my reference to the UK gun ban. No one cared if it was a
collector piece and safetly locked away. It be came contraband and had to be turned in.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2006, 12:07 AM

The point has been made that restrictive action taken by those in authority, is really about control.

It is probably fair to assume that most people in the world today live in communities.

The purpose of a community is to support and sustain the members of the community.

The members of the community must submit to the level of control necessary to ensure that the community remains a viable entity.

The viability of any community in the developed world today depends upon that community's continued economic viability.

The economic viability of a community relies upon the members of that community being productive units who will direct their productive capacity towards the support of themselves and the community.

If restrictive action is about control, and I personally believe that it is, it may be of benefit to all of us to try to come to some sort of understanding in respect of who gains the greatest benefit from that control.

Does the greatest benefit accrue to the community member who is furthest down in the pecking order of the community, or does it accrue to the community member who is at the top of the pecking order?

Since communities in the developed world are economic entities, is it not reasonable to expect to find that those at the top of the community pecking order, are also at the top of the economic pecking order?

Has anybody noticed the increasing polarisation of wealth in our societies?

Does anybody truly believe that our elected representatives are acting in the best interests of the majority of people who elected them?

Or is it possible that those elected to govern us are in fact governing us in a fashion calculated to produce the greatest benefits for those in control of the economic wealth of the community?

If this is so, then ask yourself, who really controls the community in which I live?

Is it I and my neighbour through the power of our vote and our voice, or is it some unseen person or organisation?

When we have lost all our rights, ( or , if you live in Australia, your privileges,) except those inalienable rights to be born, produce, consume, and die, we may console ourselves with the thought that as members of a community we have ensured the continuation of a system that on the whole has more to recommend it than its alternative.

You thought this was all about taking away our toys?

Well, it ain't.

Its about the continuation of the human race.

If a steamroller is coming down the road a smart man steps to one side, he does not try to stop it.

Rick · 28th June 2006, 04:29 PM

That's not a rant , it's a legitimate gripe !
We have the same basic knife carry rules in Massachusetts as you do over in old Jolly .
These rules vary from state to state though ; for instance in Florida it's open season guns and all ! A rude gesture in traffic could get you your head blown off .
We are indeed a country of contrasts ; even in Mass. it's not too hard for an average small town bloke to get a concealed carry permit . I don't really see this as a particularly bad thing provided the bearer is sane .

Recently we had a fellow over to fix some furniture my Wife bought (imagine wasting your money on furniture when there are so many deserving swords out there looking for a home) ; to make a long story even longer I engaged him in conversation as he enjoyed the swords he had seen ; we got around to talking about guns and laws etc. and he says "here, check this out" and proceeds to pull out of his front pocket a beautiful little S&W revolver . He unloaded it and let me check it out ; "nice piece" says I "how did you ever get a permit to carry concealed" he says "it's the best thing to do when you go for your firearms ID. card ; go for the whole 9 yards , might as well before they clamp down."
Truer words were never said .

Freedoms ; use 'em or lose 'em .

28th June 2006, 04:23 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I can offer just my personal experience - I went to school in slums. During my stay there 4 students were killed - one was stabbed, one had his brains blown out by a hammer, two were tied up and thrown from the 9th floor. Trust me, you don't need a knife to kill someone - screwdriver or hammer work great. There are also tons of other possibilities, like heavy belt buckles, socks with pennies and piano strings for true weirdos. Otherwise, like it happened with me, you can just take someone and smash his head into a heater. For some biological reasons violance is rather exciting and on some level is quite pleasant, altough the taste is an acquired one. Unfortunately, with the life of most people in slums being rather dull and gloomy, drugs, alcohol and violence is what people resort to.

28th June 2006, 04:58 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Violence is latent in all of us, to a degree the ability to attack / defend yourself is instinctive, its only circumstances and an individual ability to control their emotions that ensures that there is less violence. Chimpanzees, have for years, been considered fairly peaceful vegetarians.....but that was far the truth. Anthropologists and zoologists have discovered, by observation that Chimpanzee's can be incredibly violent, they have the capacity to seek revenge, gain power or to bully. Occasionally they hunt for meat, usually a small monkey; the hunting party will capture the animal and literally rip it apart, with great excitement and 'blood lust'. Seeing that the genetic make-up of a chimp is one of the closest to Man, we can see our 'true' selves after our emotional / educated sophistication has been stripped away. Articles used to injure/maim/kill are many and varied, as has already been stated everyday items have / are used. The source of the problems with violent attacks is not the weapons used. It is the inability of individuals to control themselves and in societies where stress is dramatically increasing....this lack of control would, surely, increase dramatically.........

28th June 2006, 05:08 PM	#4
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I am on a Nihonto list and one of the members is meeting with "John Reid (Home Sec) at the Home Office, to discuss the proposed ban on "Samurai Swords". " I will let you know what information I can. I suspect though that a good model to gleen information from as to what will happen is the UK gun ban. As others have said it is not about effective crime control it's politics.

28th June 2006, 08:14 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I found this site thought it relavent http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php

28th June 2006, 08:55 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I don't think this applies to collectors. For starters we don't carry our blades around. Mine are in a box in my study waiting to be mounted on the wall. And we certainly don't go around stabbing people. This law is for yobs who stab teenagers in front of schools etc. Saying that I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and they had an exhibit of amnestied bladed objects, and among the usual homemade knives, modern hunting knives etc was an antique cavalry sabre...

29th June 2006, 12:07 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	The point has been made that restrictive action taken by those in authority, is really about control. It is probably fair to assume that most people in the world today live in communities. The purpose of a community is to support and sustain the members of the community. The members of the community must submit to the level of control necessary to ensure that the community remains a viable entity. The viability of any community in the developed world today depends upon that community's continued economic viability. The economic viability of a community relies upon the members of that community being productive units who will direct their productive capacity towards the support of themselves and the community. If restrictive action is about control, and I personally believe that it is, it may be of benefit to all of us to try to come to some sort of understanding in respect of who gains the greatest benefit from that control. Does the greatest benefit accrue to the community member who is furthest down in the pecking order of the community, or does it accrue to the community member who is at the top of the pecking order? Since communities in the developed world are economic entities, is it not reasonable to expect to find that those at the top of the community pecking order, are also at the top of the economic pecking order? Has anybody noticed the increasing polarisation of wealth in our societies? Does anybody truly believe that our elected representatives are acting in the best interests of the majority of people who elected them? Or is it possible that those elected to govern us are in fact governing us in a fashion calculated to produce the greatest benefits for those in control of the economic wealth of the community? If this is so, then ask yourself, who really controls the community in which I live? Is it I and my neighbour through the power of our vote and our voice, or is it some unseen person or organisation? When we have lost all our rights, ( or , if you live in Australia, your privileges,) except those inalienable rights to be born, produce, consume, and die, we may console ourselves with the thought that as members of a community we have ensured the continuation of a system that on the whole has more to recommend it than its alternative. You thought this was all about taking away our toys? Well, it ain't. Its about the continuation of the human race. If a steamroller is coming down the road a smart man steps to one side, he does not try to stop it.

28th June 2006, 04:29 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	That's not a rant , it's a legitimate gripe ! We have the same basic knife carry rules in Massachusetts as you do over in old Jolly . These rules vary from state to state though ; for instance in Florida it's open season guns and all ! A rude gesture in traffic could get you your head blown off . We are indeed a country of contrasts ; even in Mass. it's not too hard for an average small town bloke to get a concealed carry permit . I don't really see this as a particularly bad thing provided the bearer is sane . Recently we had a fellow over to fix some furniture my Wife bought (imagine wasting your money on furniture when there are so many deserving swords out there looking for a home) ; to make a long story even longer I engaged him in conversation as he enjoyed the swords he had seen ; we got around to talking about guns and laws etc. and he says "here, check this out" and proceeds to pull out of his front pocket a beautiful little S&W revolver . He unloaded it and let me check it out ; "nice piece" says I "how did you ever get a permit to carry concealed" he says "it's the best thing to do when you go for your firearms ID. card ; go for the whole 9 yards , might as well before they clamp down." Truer words were never said . Freedoms ; use 'em or lose 'em .