Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

awdaniec666 · 21st June 2023, 05:52 PM

Teisani,
hm.., with respect to the quality of the paintings I think we can interpret the hilts as they are shown to us and that hilt is clearly shaped like an eagle-head.

awdaniec666 · 12th August 2023, 03:13 PM

Some more depictions I found recently.

1. Hieronim Radziwill in his hussarish wedding dress, Poland-Lithuania - anno 1764
2. Stanislaw Herakliusz Lubomirski, Poland-Lithuania - 2nd half of the 17th century (note the scabbard of the Karabela -clearly a battle type- beeing decorated in red instead of black, in contrast to some authors who claim these were only encased with black leather. It´s also interesting that the hilt is probably made of wood or horn despite the rank of the bearer, which is an argument against claims that simple hilts were used solely by the lower class nobles who could not afford lavishly decorated hilts. The Lubomirski family was one of the richest in Europe at that time.)

Teisani · 20th August 2023, 11:24 AM

1 - Thököly Imre from Transylvania, born 1657 - died 1705. Karabela hilt sabre. Chevrons on the hilt are visible.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license
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Name: Thokolyi.jpg
Views: 8542
Size: 72.2 KB

2- Pálffy Miklós 1552–1600 from Transylvania. I'm unsure if this portret was made much after his death, it's from Klebeband Nr. 1. I believe we should be careful with these portrets, since some could be later copies of lost originals, and could contain elements from later periods. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license
Name: Arolsen_Klebeband_01_440.jpg
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Name: Arolsen_Klebeband_01_440.jpg
Views: 8681
Size: 678.3 KB

At his side there is a typical boot-hilted sabre. In the lower left corner two sabres which look like karabela hilt, however they also seen reminescent of german hunting-sword hilts, like these here. They lack the languette on the side of the guard, but it's pretty common for period depictions to omit this detail. Opinions?

Teisani · 20th October 2023, 05:39 PM

3 Styrian sabre blades + crossguards, mace, hussar helmet and lammelar breastplate remnants found in the tomb possibly of Bathory Ferecz (died 1597-1602) or Elek Bathory (died 1587) in Pericei, Sălaj county, Romania 2021, by a team from the Muzeul Judeţean de Istorie şi Artă Zalău.

One the x-ray picture looks like a pallash with a triple fullered, double edged blade.

https://maszol.ro/belfold/Tizenhatod...agyperecsenben
https://www.agerpres.ro/cultura/2023...ricei--1176447
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Exijdoh1TVI
https://muzeuzalau.ro/rezultate-starea-actuala/

Teisani · 24th October 2023, 08:38 AM

Clearest pictures I've managed to find so far.
https://www.nuremberg.museum/project...-relief-plates

Teisani · 27th November 2023, 08:25 PM

One more (trophy?) Ottoman sabre depiction in European art. From the L'Ospedale di Santo Spirito - Corsia Sistina. The fresco was painted around 1475-78, and probably depicts Nicholas of Ilok, "King of Bosnia and Wallachia?", who came to Rome as a pilgrim for the Jubilee, in the spring of 1475.
You can read about it in 'MEN IN EXOTIC DRESS', SIXTUS IV AND CRUSADE: A FRESCO OF CORSIA SISTINA AND ITS MEANING and in Dracula before the POPE in 1475? Forgotten sources

Unfortunately, the pictures and the depiction itself aren't very detailed. So of limited use. I'm posting this here just for completeness.

21st June 2023, 05:52 PM	#1
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	Teisani, hm.., with respect to the quality of the paintings I think we can interpret the hilts as they are shown to us and that hilt is clearly shaped like an eagle-head. Attached Images

12th August 2023, 03:13 PM	#2
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	Some more depictions I found recently. 1. Hieronim Radziwill in his hussarish wedding dress, Poland-Lithuania - anno 1764 2. Stanislaw Herakliusz Lubomirski, Poland-Lithuania - 2nd half of the 17th century (note the scabbard of the Karabela -clearly a battle type- beeing decorated in red instead of black, in contrast to some authors who claim these were only encased with black leather. It´s also interesting that the hilt is probably made of wood or horn despite the rank of the bearer, which is an argument against claims that simple hilts were used solely by the lower class nobles who could not afford lavishly decorated hilts. The Lubomirski family was one of the richest in Europe at that time.) Attached Images Last edited by awdaniec666; 12th August 2023 at 03:23 PM. Reason: history background to Lubomirski´s sabre

20th August 2023, 11:24 AM	#3
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	1 - Thököly Imre from Transylvania, born 1657 - died 1705. Karabela hilt sabre. Chevrons on the hilt are visible. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license 2- Pálffy Miklós 1552–1600 from Transylvania. I'm unsure if this portret was made much after his death, it's from Klebeband Nr. 1. I believe we should be careful with these portrets, since some could be later copies of lost originals, and could contain elements from later periods. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license At his side there is a typical boot-hilted sabre. In the lower left corner two sabres which look like karabela hilt, however they also seen reminescent of german hunting-sword hilts, like these here. They lack the languette on the side of the guard, but it's pretty common for period depictions to omit this detail. Opinions?

20th October 2023, 05:39 PM	#4
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	3 Styrian sabre blades + crossguards, mace, hussar helmet and lammelar breastplate remnants found in the tomb possibly of Bathory Ferecz (died 1597-1602) or Elek Bathory (died 1587) in Pericei, Sălaj county, Romania 2021, by a team from the Muzeul Judeţean de Istorie şi Artă Zalău. One the x-ray picture looks like a pallash with a triple fullered, double edged blade. https://maszol.ro/belfold/Tizenhatod...agyperecsenben https://www.agerpres.ro/cultura/2023...ricei--1176447 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Exijdoh1TVI https://muzeuzalau.ro/rezultate-starea-actuala/ Attached Images Last edited by Teisani; 20th October 2023 at 07:26 PM.

24th October 2023, 08:38 AM	#5
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Clearest pictures I've managed to find so far. https://www.nuremberg.museum/project...-relief-plates Attached Images

27th November 2023, 08:25 PM	#6
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	One more (trophy?) Ottoman sabre depiction in European art. From the L'Ospedale di Santo Spirito - Corsia Sistina. The fresco was painted around 1475-78, and probably depicts Nicholas of Ilok, "King of Bosnia and Wallachia?", who came to Rome as a pilgrim for the Jubilee, in the spring of 1475. You can read about it in 'MEN IN EXOTIC DRESS', SIXTUS IV AND CRUSADE: A FRESCO OF CORSIA SISTINA AND ITS MEANING and in Dracula before the POPE in 1475? Forgotten sources Unfortunately, the pictures and the depiction itself aren't very detailed. So of limited use. I'm posting this here just for completeness. Attached Images