Would you call this a small Machete ... or not ?

[fernando]

Thank you for your input, Jim. My asking if this thing is a machete was more to define whether its form fitted in the tradionally machete known way and not the ethimology of the term; which, not wishing (or afford) to be academic, its origin is not so solid. Look how the various Spanish sources deal with the term in its acceptations.
The origin of the term machete is unknown, but it is mostly believed that it is a diminutive of macho. Another possibility is that it comes from the term machaera and this one in turn from the Greek μάχαιρα, which the Romans used to describe the Iberian falcata with similar characteristics.
This word is etymologically composed of the Latin «marcŭlus» small martillo or male and the suffix «ete» which indicates diminutive with affective expressions and at the same time as derogatory.
Although its name is Spanish, possibly derived from 'macho', its ancestors are located at the dawn of history. The investigators are inclined to label the falchion as its most dangerous parent, whose appearance is located in Europe in the XI century.
And last but not least, although for the fun of it, the machete term in Spanish school lexicon, is a 'cheat sheet' implement .

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=fernando;282829]Thank you for your input, Jim. My asking if this thing is a machete was more to define whether its form fitted in the tradionally machete known way and not the ethimology of the term; which, not wishing (or afford) to be academic, its origin is not so solid. Look how the various Spanish sources deal with the term in its acceptances.
The origin of the term machete is unknown, but it is mostly believed that it is a diminutive of macho. Another possibility is that it comes from the term machaera and this one in turn from the Greek μάχαιρα, which the Romans used to describe the Iberian falcata with similar characteristics.
This word is etymologically composed of the Latin «marcŭlus» small martillo or male and the suffix «ete» which indicates diminutive with affective expressions and at the same time as derogatory.
Although its name is Spanish, possibly derived from 'macho', its ancestors are located at the dawn of history. The investigators are inclined to label the falchion as its most dangerous parent, whose appearance is located in Europe in the XI century.
And last but not least, although for the fun of it, the machete term in Spanish school lexicon, is a 'cheat sheet' implement .[/QUOTE

The point I was making is that the term machete, and as I described its tortured etymology are of little help in the endless struggle to classify weapon examples in certain pigeon holes. The Spanish colonial espada ancha for example, was never colloquially called that, it was referred to as a MACHETE. The term never arise until a misunderstanding by arms writers in the 1970s. In shipboard records and inventories of 17th centuries, short heavy bladed swords (with open hilts) were sometimes called machetes, sometimes cutlasses.
It pretty much depended on who was using it, when, where and what for. If it was chopping wood or brush it was a machete, when used as a weapon, a sword or whatever.

[Gavin Nugent]

Looks a lot like a "No Spin" vintage throwing knife to me, but at 18 inches, one would have to ask why? Many vintage throwing knives share this handle profile though.

If a Machete, it looks simple, robust and practical enough, but why 6" long grip when 4" would suffice and offer better reach and fulcrum point... the grip does not look practical for a machete application.

The length falls around a Smatchet length, being used for chopping and thrusting, which the blade shape provides, but typically these also have a short handle and a Bolo type blade.

The handle profile also reminds me a lot of the old French made "Navaja", made for local and export markets, many contracted by Spanish guilds.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

... Looks a lot like a "No Spin" vintage throwing knife to me, but at 18 inches, one would have to ask why? Many vintage throwing knives share this handle profile though....

Thank you Gavin. Throwing knives can be rather long, specially those 'no spin' ones used in circus.
Still i doubt this is the case, as its point is not symmetrical, wile (human) target throwing blades must be.
See the one i once owned, that was considered a circus example. Its length is 35 cms., but it goes longer, when having its wooden grip.
On the other hand, the 'bowie' type tip in the discussed example must point to something.

.

[Rick]

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

Butcher's knife 17.5 inches oa.
Similar blade profile and point.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

I don't know what to say, Rick; only that, although this is an 'unexpected' suggestion, i can not reject it, as plausible; the throw is right, as is the weight.
Meanwhile i decided to give it a soft clean.


.

[milandro]

there has to be a very specific reason to make a forged integral hilt for a knife, it is makes it very heavy and it uses a lot of steel which in times past was an expensive commodity.

The throwing knife had crossed my mind . Maybe there are other uses to a throwing knife than just create a recreational thrill.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Could this be a Fishmonger's chopper?
It would be handy for taking the head and tail off a smaller Tuna such as a Bonito.

Butcher's knife 17.5 inches oa.
Similar blade profile and point.

Butcher's or fishmonger's, Rick ?. This new picture is convincing .

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Butcher's or fishmonger's, Rick ?. This new picture is convincing .

I struggle with the notion... fish handling is s slippery business and a cold business... I feel something on that ilk would have a larger warmer timber grip with a pommel end of hook larger than the grip for safer handling too....

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Gavin. Throwing knives can be rather long, specially those 'no spin' ones used in circus.
Still i doubt this is the case, as its point is not symmetrical, wile (human) target throwing blades must be.
See the one i once owned, that was considered a circus example. Its length is 35 cms., but it goes longer, when having its wooden grip.
On the other hand, the 'bowie' type tip in the discussed example must point to something.

.

There is a large misconception that throwing knives must be symmetrical.

https://blademag.com/knife-collectin...-knives-tested

The same pattern seen in the top knife is also seen in vintage examples too.

Originally Posted by fernando

Milandro and Jerseyman, still the form is not right for a throwing knife. Look at the tip; the thrower would not risk to lose direction showing off with that bowie (non symmetric) head and perforate the human target.

A little looking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW4fDMn251c

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In shipboard records and inventories of 17th centuries, short heavy bladed swords (with open hilts) were sometimes called machetes, sometimes cutlasses.It pretty much depended on who was using it , when, where and what for. If it was chopping wood or bush it was a machete, when used as a weapon, a sword or whatever.

Indeed Jim. You take the Portuguese example, in that we call the 'generic' machete a 'CATANA'. Reason why ?

The term Catana was incorporated into the Portuguese language in the 16th century, after the arrival of the Portuguese in Japan. For this reason, in these almost five hundred years, this word has lost its Japanese pronunciation, becoming Portuguese and gaining new meanings in Portuguese, especially in the European, African and Asian variants, designating a variety of objects such as swords, sabers or machetes.

I have phoned this morning my favorite ironmonger, whom i know sells these things as tools. He didn't even know that his Catanas are (also) called machetes !