Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)

MABAGANI · 27th June 2006, 08:33 AM

Salam Pak Braulio,
Anyway, you ask, "So what is the truth about the whole american expat thing...? i've heard different rumors and such."
That is a fair question, and it deserves an honest and complete explanation. And, by the way, if you are so inclined, and you do not object, it would be great for you to post what I am about to write on that forum so other posters there can better understand. However, if this would jeopardize your standing on that forum, i.e. cause you to be thrown off of it, then please don't take that risk.
I am an American expat, and I live in a remote village not far from the cultural heart of Bali, which is Ubud. I am married to a prominent Balinese lady, and we have three sons. We live in her ancestral village, so I almost as married to her family, and my village, as I am to her.
We have one of only two on-line computers in the village. The other on-line computer is also ours, but it is located in another family compound, a family member, who is working on his doctorate degree in anthropology and ethnomusicology. We share our computer with several other village members who are advancing in their English, as well as a small group of kris enthusiasts including the well known Pande Retug. Without getting into a whole lot of unnecessary details, my wife and I are considerably involved with numerous NGOs and other charitable organizations, as well as cultural organizations throughout Bali. Somewhat embracing the old adage that "charity begins at home" I spend most of my time working within my own village, and with these people that are my family, and that I love dearly.
In signing up for eewers, we, (meaning our kris club), decided to use the very generic Balinese name Wayan, which simply designates first born, and does not even have a gender, as both first born men and women of average caste status are named Wayan. Our "kris club" for lack of a better word to define it, came about quite spontaneously over many long discussions with my fellow villagers. Eventually these conversations boiled down to the realization that aside from Western scholars, very little about the kris di Bali has been written by Balinese.
So, that is the background of this situation. I do most of the writing, but not all, as my cousin, whose name is Wayan ...the young man pursuing his doctorate, has excellent English skills and has lived and studied in the states for over five years.
At first blush I can see how someone could consider our membership in eewers as deceptive, as we did not explain this right off. At the time it seemed unnecessary, as we were all speaking in one voice, representing mutually held opinions about kris di Bali.
As an "adopted Balinese" I very much follow what has in fact been written about kris scholars concerning the Balinese kris, and I will not make apologies for that:
As wong Maospahit, or people of Majapahit, the Balinese are the closest direct descendants of the original masters of kris making. By the time of the fall of the Majapahit empire in the late 15th century, most all of the best artisans had fled Java for Bali, (refer Edward Frey, The Kris, page 45). This exodus of artists from Java to the remaining Hindu areas such as Bali and Lombok was caused by the Islamic prohibition of living images in art or utilitarian objects imposed by the Muslims, who were ever increasingly taking control of Java. Kris scholars acknowledge that the Balinese kris, which is significantly different than its Javanese cousin, is most closely aligned to the original kris which evolved in the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit Dynasties.
That is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth, and as far as we are concerned, there is no reason to walk on egg shells when discussing that truth. So, that's it. Salam, and Om Santi, Santi, Santi, Om from Bali.

nechesh · 27th June 2006, 02:43 PM

Well, since it would appear that our friend Wayan does still have a voice of sorts on this forum i would suggest that you might want to consider that he is not quite coming clean on his entire history.

This is kinda like the fox explaining to the chickens what he was doing in the hen house.

And just to continue a debate Wayan and i were having when he was banned, Yes, many artisians left Jawa to go to Bali when Islam took over. The laws of Islam do call for a ban on the representation of living creatures in art, bith human and animal AFAIK. HOWEVER, as i pointed out to Wayan, these rules aren't so cut and dry as he seems to think as can nbe proven by the existence of raksasa hilts in both Jawa and Madura as well as bird and horse headed hilts from Madura. I have seen priest figures holding a flower as a common motif from (i think) east Jawa or Madura. THIS is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth.

But what do i know, i'm just a guy from Cincinnati.

nechesh · 27th June 2006, 03:00 PM

BTW, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the raksasa form, they generally have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a mouth, 5 fingers and 5 toes. I don't know what they call that amongst Wayan's clan, but i certainly consider that human form, which is not to say they ARE human any more than Siva or any of the gods depicted are.

Andrew · 27th June 2006, 03:15 PM

Please take this discussion to private email gentlemen. Otherwise I will close this thread.

Rick · 27th June 2006, 03:15 PM

Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa .

From Tammens

VANDOO · 27th June 2006, 04:18 PM

BEATING A DEAD HORSE ICON

WE HAVE NEEDED ONE OF THOSE FOR A WHILE

WHILE ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID SO FAR IS TRUE AS TO TYPES OF KERIS HULU CARVINGS. I WOULD PUT FORWARD THE IDEA THAT WHEN THE MOSLEMS TOOK OVER IN JAVA PERHAPS THE LEADERS WERE UNDERSTANDING AND DIDN'T RULE WITH A IRON FIST AND ALOWED THOSE WHO WISHED TO REMAIN HINDU TO LIVE AND DO SO AFTER ALL THEY ALLOW BALI TO REMAIN HINDU. THAT WAY THE CHANGE WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE SLOWER AS THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG WERE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF ISLAM AND THE POPULATION GRADUALLY BECAME MOSLEM. DURING THIS PERIOD SOME THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE OLD WAYS AND WOULD HAVE STILL HAD A MARKET AMONG THE HINDU POPULATION. A MOSLEM WOULD BE PROHIBITED BY HIS FAITH FROM OWNING OR PRODUCING BANNED STYLES OF ART SO THE OLD STYLES WOULD HAVE FADED OUT AND THE NEWER ONES HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE.

JUST MY THOUGHTS FACT OR FICTION? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDONESIA TO SAY BUT IT MIGHT OFFER AN EXPLANATION. WHEN DEALING WITH MANKIND AND HISTORY THERE ARE FEW ABSOLUTES PERHAPS ONLY BIRTH ,DEATH AND TAXES.

BSMStar · 27th June 2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa .

Beating a dead horse...

Here are two hilts from Indonesia, the first is from northern Jawa (a Jinn with Naga attributes) and the second is from Madura (Semar).

I too have been confused by the presents of these in light of the cultural ban. They do not appear to be made for the Hindu market, just my opinion.

Mark · 27th June 2006, 05:27 PM

It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm.

Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

micas · 27th June 2006, 05:45 PM

Here's an article on the subject.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

MABAGANI · 27th June 2006, 03:28 PM

The conundrum is which wayan to address among the kris di Bali club given their circumstance. You can email them direct.

27th June 2006, 08:33 AM	#1
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	From Wayan Salam Pak Braulio, Anyway, you ask, "So what is the truth about the whole american expat thing...? i've heard different rumors and such." That is a fair question, and it deserves an honest and complete explanation. And, by the way, if you are so inclined, and you do not object, it would be great for you to post what I am about to write on that forum so other posters there can better understand. However, if this would jeopardize your standing on that forum, i.e. cause you to be thrown off of it, then please don't take that risk. I am an American expat, and I live in a remote village not far from the cultural heart of Bali, which is Ubud. I am married to a prominent Balinese lady, and we have three sons. We live in her ancestral village, so I almost as married to her family, and my village, as I am to her. We have one of only two on-line computers in the village. The other on-line computer is also ours, but it is located in another family compound, a family member, who is working on his doctorate degree in anthropology and ethnomusicology. We share our computer with several other village members who are advancing in their English, as well as a small group of kris enthusiasts including the well known Pande Retug. Without getting into a whole lot of unnecessary details, my wife and I are considerably involved with numerous NGOs and other charitable organizations, as well as cultural organizations throughout Bali. Somewhat embracing the old adage that "charity begins at home" I spend most of my time working within my own village, and with these people that are my family, and that I love dearly. In signing up for eewers, we, (meaning our kris club), decided to use the very generic Balinese name Wayan, which simply designates first born, and does not even have a gender, as both first born men and women of average caste status are named Wayan. Our "kris club" for lack of a better word to define it, came about quite spontaneously over many long discussions with my fellow villagers. Eventually these conversations boiled down to the realization that aside from Western scholars, very little about the kris di Bali has been written by Balinese. So, that is the background of this situation. I do most of the writing, but not all, as my cousin, whose name is Wayan ...the young man pursuing his doctorate, has excellent English skills and has lived and studied in the states for over five years. At first blush I can see how someone could consider our membership in eewers as deceptive, as we did not explain this right off. At the time it seemed unnecessary, as we were all speaking in one voice, representing mutually held opinions about kris di Bali. As an "adopted Balinese" I very much follow what has in fact been written about kris scholars concerning the Balinese kris, and I will not make apologies for that: As wong Maospahit, or people of Majapahit, the Balinese are the closest direct descendants of the original masters of kris making. By the time of the fall of the Majapahit empire in the late 15th century, most all of the best artisans had fled Java for Bali, (refer Edward Frey, The Kris, page 45). This exodus of artists from Java to the remaining Hindu areas such as Bali and Lombok was caused by the Islamic prohibition of living images in art or utilitarian objects imposed by the Muslims, who were ever increasingly taking control of Java. Kris scholars acknowledge that the Balinese kris, which is significantly different than its Javanese cousin, is most closely aligned to the original kris which evolved in the Hindu-Buddhist traditions of the Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit Dynasties. That is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth, and as far as we are concerned, there is no reason to walk on egg shells when discussing that truth. So, that's it. Salam, and Om Santi, Santi, Santi, Om from Bali.

27th June 2006, 03:15 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Sigh Just to put this ukiran argument to bed here is a keris handle from Jawa . From Tammens Attached Images

27th June 2006, 02:43 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, since it would appear that our friend Wayan does still have a voice of sorts on this forum i would suggest that you might want to consider that he is not quite coming clean on his entire history. This is kinda like the fox explaining to the chickens what he was doing in the hen house. And just to continue a debate Wayan and i were having when he was banned, Yes, many artisians left Jawa to go to Bali when Islam took over. The laws of Islam do call for a ban on the representation of living creatures in art, bith human and animal AFAIK. HOWEVER, as i pointed out to Wayan, these rules aren't so cut and dry as he seems to think as can nbe proven by the existence of raksasa hilts in both Jawa and Madura as well as bird and horse headed hilts from Madura. I have seen priest figures holding a flower as a common motif from (i think) east Jawa or Madura. THIS is not folklore, theory, or speculation. Rather it is historically documented truth. But what do i know, i'm just a guy from Cincinnati.

27th June 2006, 03:00 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	BTW, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the raksasa form, they generally have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a mouth, 5 fingers and 5 toes. I don't know what they call that amongst Wayan's clan, but i certainly consider that human form, which is not to say they ARE human any more than Siva or any of the gods depicted are.

27th June 2006, 03:15 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Please take this discussion to private email gentlemen. Otherwise I will close this thread.

27th June 2006, 04:18 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEATING A DEAD HORSE ICON WE HAVE NEEDED ONE OF THOSE FOR A WHILE WHILE ALL THAT HAS BEEN SAID SO FAR IS TRUE AS TO TYPES OF KERIS HULU CARVINGS. I WOULD PUT FORWARD THE IDEA THAT WHEN THE MOSLEMS TOOK OVER IN JAVA PERHAPS THE LEADERS WERE UNDERSTANDING AND DIDN'T RULE WITH A IRON FIST AND ALOWED THOSE WHO WISHED TO REMAIN HINDU TO LIVE AND DO SO AFTER ALL THEY ALLOW BALI TO REMAIN HINDU. THAT WAY THE CHANGE WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE SLOWER AS THE CHILDREN AND YOUNG WERE EDUCATED IN THE WAYS OF ISLAM AND THE POPULATION GRADUALLY BECAME MOSLEM. DURING THIS PERIOD SOME THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE OLD WAYS AND WOULD HAVE STILL HAD A MARKET AMONG THE HINDU POPULATION. A MOSLEM WOULD BE PROHIBITED BY HIS FAITH FROM OWNING OR PRODUCING BANNED STYLES OF ART SO THE OLD STYLES WOULD HAVE FADED OUT AND THE NEWER ONES HAVE TAKEN THEIR PLACE. JUST MY THOUGHTS FACT OR FICTION? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDONESIA TO SAY BUT IT MIGHT OFFER AN EXPLANATION. WHEN DEALING WITH MANKIND AND HISTORY THERE ARE FEW ABSOLUTES PERHAPS ONLY BIRTH ,DEATH AND TAXES.

27th June 2006, 05:27 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It would not be the first time that the ban was "bent." There are numerous examples of Islamic art depicting human and animal figures - I found a couple here: http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/lia.htm. Was this a total ban on depicting the human form, or was it specific in some way? I remember seeing painting that contained the figure of the Prophet Mohammed, but with his face completely hidden by a veil, which I think was how the ban was complied with in that case. How strictly it was enforced might have just depended on who was in charge at the time.

27th June 2006, 05:45 PM	#9
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	Here's an article on the subject. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...lam&sbid=lc03b

27th June 2006, 03:28 PM	#10
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	The conundrum is which wayan to address among the kris di Bali club given their circumstance. You can email them direct.