Comments, please on Turkish Knife, made from a file

ham · 27th June 2006, 04:39 AM

The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling.

Ham

The Double D · 27th June 2006, 07:58 PM

Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine.

My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view.

Why do you think this is a file knife?

Surely not from these marks?

If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me.

Now these marks...

The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure?

The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file.

And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection

My a less educated and less articulate point of view.

katana · 27th June 2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me.

Now these marks...
The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure?

The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file.

.

Hi DD, thankyou for your input...the spine of the knife is effectively the thickest, and therefore the 'teeth' of the file are more obvious. The blade is ground,which tapers to the edge, this would remove the 'teeth' as the file is made thinner to form the cutting edge. The cross hatching on the spine is not the 'remains' of the file showing, it has been incised, probably with a fine chisel, as decoration. It can be difficult to analyse a blade from a photo...its easier for me.....its in my hand

I always welcome ideas, no matter how bizarre, strange or 'commonsense-icle', this is how things are learnt, not by repeating the same ideas but by challenging them. If the ideas are right they remain unchanged but if a new idea or thought upsets the 'apple cart'. The established idea has to be reviewed, altered or thrown away....... a sort of 'evolution of knowledge'
......... oops......just fallen off me soapbox

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2006, 08:44 PM

Do not forget that the cutting parts of the file are forged into the metal, these will stretch as the metal is worked. There will be remnants of file structure often as a scale pattern that can be anywhere on the blade unless ground off.

katana · 27th June 2006, 09:12 PM

I was reading about the forging process of a blade. During the processes of heating and cooling, the metals properties are altered. At one point of this process a blade would have the metallurgic properties of a file i.e. very hard and brittle. This is then reheated and cooled to 'soften' the blade to increase its ability to absorb blows (becomes less brittle and hardness is reduced). I can only assume that the file is annealed (made 'softer') to allow it to be forged without fracturing. If this is the case it would make sense that the teeth would be beaten into the surface of the metal and stretched.

The Double D · 27th June 2006, 10:58 PM

I tossed out my idea because of my background and having made a fair amount of tools from old files, including a pretty ugly knife or two but mostly chisels and scrapers. Forging does indeed kind of work the file marks in. But this knife appears more ground or filed to me than forged.

Can you tell if it is forged or ground. (edit--Well just reread your post and did say ground)

Would the method of manufacure point to it's origin? One culture annealing then grinding or filing and another forging?

27th June 2006, 04:39 AM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling. Ham

27th June 2006, 07:58 PM	#2
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine. My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view. Why do you think this is a file knife? Surely not from these marks? If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me. Now these marks... The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure? The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file. And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection My a less educated and less articulate point of view.

27th June 2006, 08:44 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Do not forget that the cutting parts of the file are forged into the metal, these will stretch as the metal is worked. There will be remnants of file structure often as a scale pattern that can be anywhere on the blade unless ground off.

27th June 2006, 09:12 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I was reading about the forging process of a blade. During the processes of heating and cooling, the metals properties are altered. At one point of this process a blade would have the metallurgic properties of a file i.e. very hard and brittle. This is then reheated and cooled to 'soften' the blade to increase its ability to absorb blows (becomes less brittle and hardness is reduced). I can only assume that the file is annealed (made 'softer') to allow it to be forged without fracturing. If this is the case it would make sense that the teeth would be beaten into the surface of the metal and stretched.

27th June 2006, 10:58 PM	#6
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I tossed out my idea because of my background and having made a fair amount of tools from old files, including a pretty ugly knife or two but mostly chisels and scrapers. Forging does indeed kind of work the file marks in. But this knife appears more ground or filed to me than forged. Can you tell if it is forged or ground. (edit--Well just reread your post and did say ground) Would the method of manufacure point to it's origin? One culture annealing then grinding or filing and another forging?