19thc Chinese naval dao - cutlass ??

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

Much thanks for all your views everyone who has commented so far.

Werecow, you are correct in your observations, it is somewhat like a Viet guom but a bit more Chunky than any I have ever had, it is likely south Chinese so very close to Nam though.
All help and observations are duly noted, and much thanks to all again, I am still learning how to use this forum so bear with me please and do not take what may appears as a SHARPNESS of tongue in my answers the wrong way, I can assure you I mean no offence and it really is down to the way express myself in writing.

I certainly did not take any offense. Productive discussion is a good thing. I am still somewhat new to sword collecting so I may speak a lot of nonsense or point out things that are obvious to more experienced collectors as if they are a revelation to me.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

I have always been one to hold with the old saying ''we live and learn'', and that there are no experts in anything, but there are those who have lived and learned and are willing to pass on good knowledge , I like to think life still teaches me something every hour of every new day, and it certainly does , so live and learn !!, there are certainly plenty of experienced people on the forum to learn from. . snody

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Maj-Biffy Snodgrass

I have always been one to hold with the old saying ''we live and learn'', and that there are no experts in anything, but there are those who have lived and learned and are willing to pass on good knowledge , I like to think life still teaches me something every hour of every new day, and it certainly does , so live and learn !!, there are certainly plenty of experienced people on the forum to learn from. . snody

AMEN!

[kronckew]

On advice of a friend, I've bent the upper guard quillion forward back in a more forward position; I also note that the photos above lack scale, the grip is comfortably two-handed at 7 in., and the 28.75 in. blade is heavy (and very sharp). It is not a nimble cutlass, it's a brutal hacker.

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Wayne, well you certainly fixed that and did a fine job of it, congratulations.
In my own estimation and I am by far NOT an expert I would be looking towards Vietnam for origin and age 19thc for your sword, the finish on the blade certainly has that tell tale finish seen on many Vietnam - Indo China regional swords, perhaps even what were the Cham regions, I like it, nice honest sword indeed.. Snody

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

[Jim McDougall]

This is an interesting sword, and it would be hard to assert any specific classification or even period for that matter. The character of the hilt and distinctive down turned quillon and D guard knucklebow suggest Chinese swords/knives that were common among the 'river pirates' as Capn Mark has noted.
These were actually Chinese martial artists who were in effect acting as body guards and security forces in commerce movement in trade networks via the waterways into the ports. In the endless glossary of 'collectors terms' many sets of paired knives often in this hilt style are termed 'butterfly knives'.

While this simple hilt form was not confined to these, the general form was widely applied to Chinese knives and swords from late 17th century into the 20th, so again, hard to confine classification specifically.

These Chinese martial artists who were as noted, often part of companies or agencies , much in the manner of 'privateers', in times of unemployment they resorted to 'private enterprise' (= piracy).

Just as with pirates in the broad sense, they often 'confiscated' weapons along with materials, so the spectrum of weapons forms used by them is pretty much anybody's guess without exact provenance.

It seems most Chinese edged weapons are deemed of the "Boxer Rebellion" period in 1900, however many could be later as US presence was well known especially in the rivers into 1920s (Steve McQueen, "The Sand Pebbles").

I have an example of a ring pommel 'da dao' from the 'Eight Trigram Rebellion' (1814) which shows the general form of these kinds of swords used by martial artists then, and well through the 19th c. At the time of the 'Boxer Rebellion' (=martial artists) there were constant performances by martial artists intended to instill fear in the western intruders.

A panoply of these forms from the 2009 discussion we had here on 'butterfly knives' with Gav Nugent. The image of the Chinese vessels casually known by the west as 'junks'.
One of the street performances noted, many during Boxer times were much more graphic and terrifying.
My BaGwa Da Dao with the Eight Trigram device, also with patriotic White Lotus type invocations including 'kill demons' etc.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

I certainly did not take any offense. Productive discussion is a good thing. I am still somewhat new to sword collecting so I may speak a lot of nonsense or point out things that are obvious to more experienced collectors as if they are a revelation to me.

Well said! no need to elaborate though, as we have always said here, we all learn together here, and sensitivity is simply counter productive. I hope I never stop learning here, and sharing things learned here with other members over two decades now in these great discussions(as shown in my last entry).
Onward!

[Maj-Biffy Snodgrass]

Hi Jim, thanks for your input, very interesting large ba gua dao, I am pretty up on Chinese swords and history having had many over many years in trade and collecting, have also learned a lot here even though I chose not to join for many many years but now having joined I think I have enough knowledge of a certain region to be able to pass on some knowledge but I certainly not an expert on Chinese swords by a long shot.
As mentioned before I have had the paired hudiedao types and singles of various sizes, also many other types over the years including the hudiedao hook blade types, but this one I have now is not typical of the type which are often referred to as the Hudiedao, this is a full sword, not a large knife for use in close quarter, it is much more like the size of your dao shown in your pics, which is why I referred to it as a cutlass type sword rather than a single Hudiedao.

Here is another I have with straight blade and the type guard often seen on 19thc boxer dadao's and later ones up to ww2, this one is likely later 19thc, but unusually this one is straight and single edged blade, it has a red lacquered crotchet cord type hilt wrap, unusual for its type as most are cloth wrapped cord, the guard I did think was possibly marked but it likely is just pareidolia on my part for thinking it, if it is a mark it is very corroded and un readable.
The green masking tape on the hilt ring is holding in a small piece of the hilt wrap that was loose which I have now restored.

Thanks again for your input, although I don't hold with the idea that all hudiedao were used by pirates river or seafaring, some maybe have been so used by them, but I think Pirates river or seafaring would have used many different types of bladed weapon, martial artists to, there were many styles of martial art that had many different types of swords attached to the different styles.
There are also references to Chinese pirates of the south China seas favouring the Borneo and Sarawak mandau as a weapon of choice, likely also because they are short enough for close quarter IN fighting. Snody

[kronckew]

I've got a similar sword, the upper guard qillion has been bent up a bit.

discussed HERE