Pappenheimer (and rapiers in general) hilt length

10thRoyal · 7th April 2023, 05:56 PM

Good afternoon y'all. In having looked at several hundred pappenheimer and rapier images over the past month I've been intrigued by how much the length of the hilt seem to vary.

For example, in shayde78's recent wonderful thread on pappenheimer he posted the following image of his own sword
(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25744)

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

He follows this by saying he is about 6'4.

Meanwhile my hand (I'm 6'3) seems to be dwarfed by the hilt on my own pappenheimer.

So my question is what is the reason for such a disparity in hilt sizes? I feel like if the purpose was for better sword balance then why not just change the pommel size? Or was this just to boost someone's ego by having the "bigger sword".

Triarii · 8th April 2023, 12:24 PM

I suspect that there are just variations, but possibly also driven by what you will be wearing on your hand. The C17th infantry swords I have (some hangers and a proto-mortuary sword) have small guards because I think the users would have bare hands or simple leather gloves. The cavalry weapons have bigger guards because I think they'd (ideally) be wearing thicker gauntlets or plate gauntlets if cuirassiers.

midelburgo · 10th April 2023, 09:41 PM

I have this thing which I suspect it could be a Swedish haudegen from the time of Lützen.
Measurements are something like 117cm total length, 93cm blade and 1495gr total weight. There is a thumb ring. The handle shows wire marks. The front edge seems to have been sharpened more often than the back.
In spite of the huge size and weight, it handles nicely, specially with a gauntlet.

It could be a Victorian monstruosity as well.

Teisani · 10th April 2023, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

It could be a Victorian monstruosity as well.

The side branches on your rapier hilt remind me a bit of this An XI sword. Maybe inspiration. It could indeed be Victorian.
https://www.sabresempire.com/2012/01...armee.html?m=1

Triarii · 11th April 2023, 11:55 AM

My hand (not very big) in my Pappenheimer. This has a rapier blade, so may have been for civilian use.

10thRoyal · 11th April 2023, 05:27 PM

These things must have been a royal pain to lug around. The number of times day they must have gotten caught on a rail or doorframe is absurd.

werecow · 12th April 2023, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thRoyal

These things must have been a royal pain to lug around. The number of times day they must have gotten caught on a rail or doorframe is absurd.

Rapiers have a definite peacock's tail quality to them.

Triarii · 13th April 2023, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thRoyal

These things must have been a royal pain to lug around. The number of times day they must have gotten caught on a rail or doorframe is absurd.

From reenactment experience - yes, they do. Good at annoying other people too. I can see why so-called scarf / town / pillow swords became popular. Pepys comments in Jan 1659/60 on a Colonels large sword catching people whilst out walking.

midelburgo · 13th April 2023, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thRoyal

These things must have been a royal pain to lug around. The number of times day they must have gotten caught on a rail or doorframe is absurd.

You know, Spanish rapier scabbards used to have a coil at the bottom and a release mechanism at the mouth, so the blade literally jumped out of the scabbard. You could have a Spaniard of 1meter 60 trying to unsheath a 1meter 20 rapier.

urbanspaceman · 14th April 2023, 12:12 PM

I acquired this recently purely because it intrigued me and it was very cheap.
It was made by Pillin and Co. for a member of the Knights of Malta which were an off-shoot of the Knights of St John... apparently (see labels).
The blade is from Thurkle with a T slug.
Anyway, the point is this: the hilt is 8&1/4 inches top to bottom and the same from quillon tip to quillon tip. The pommel is huge and very heavy.
On this 31 inch blade is is decidedly unbalanced.
Pillin must have referenced a traditional example, copied the hilt but decided against a longer blade.
ps
The Thurkle history is an interesting one.

10thRoyal · 14th April 2023, 07:13 PM

It seems like all of these pommels could moonlight as doorknobs.

Is that a feature of all Pappenheimers? Mine has the balance just in front of the guard with a 38 inch blade but the pommel still seems unwieldy for such a thin blade.

My next question is this: is there a description of what a Pappenheimer is from the 17th century? Or was this just a name applied by later academics to the style of this time period. If there is period references, what are the features they name? And what are the features accepted by modern academics of what a Pappenheimer is besides a "shell" style guard?

urbanspaceman · 14th April 2023, 09:15 PM

This is all I know but I'm sure someone will have more... probably Jim.

This style of rapier is named for Field Marshal Gottfried Heinrich Graf (count) zu Pappenheim, Imperial Cavalry commander.
A gilded pappenheimer rapier was carried by Swedish King Gustavus II Adolphus when he was killed at the Battle of Lutzen in 1632 and is preserved in the Stockholm Royal Armouries.
Coincidentally, Field Marshal von Pappenheim was also killed in this battle.

10th April 2023, 09:41 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 256	I have this thing which I suspect it could be a Swedish haudegen from the time of Lützen. Measurements are something like 117cm total length, 93cm blade and 1495gr total weight. There is a thumb ring. The handle shows wire marks. The front edge seems to have been sharpened more often than the back. In spite of the huge size and weight, it handles nicely, specially with a gauntlet. It could be a Victorian monstruosity as well. Attached Images

11th April 2023, 11:55 AM	#5
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	My hand (not very big) in my Pappenheimer. This has a rapier blade, so may have been for civilian use. Attached Images

14th April 2023, 12:12 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	modern take on a Pappenheimer I acquired this recently purely because it intrigued me and it was very cheap. It was made by Pillin and Co. for a member of the Knights of Malta which were an off-shoot of the Knights of St John... apparently (see labels). The blade is from Thurkle with a T slug. Anyway, the point is this: the hilt is 8&1/4 inches top to bottom and the same from quillon tip to quillon tip. The pommel is huge and very heavy. On this 31 inch blade is is decidedly unbalanced. Pillin must have referenced a traditional example, copied the hilt but decided against a longer blade. ps The Thurkle history is an interesting one. Attached Images

14th April 2023, 09:15 PM	#12
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	History This is all I know but I'm sure someone will have more... probably Jim. This style of rapier is named for Field Marshal Gottfried Heinrich Graf (count) zu Pappenheim, Imperial Cavalry commander. A gilded pappenheimer rapier was carried by Swedish King Gustavus II Adolphus when he was killed at the Battle of Lutzen in 1632 and is preserved in the Stockholm Royal Armouries. Coincidentally, Field Marshal von Pappenheim was also killed in this battle.

8th April 2023, 12:24 PM	#2
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	I suspect that there are just variations, but possibly also driven by what you will be wearing on your hand. The C17th infantry swords I have (some hangers and a proto-mortuary sword) have small guards because I think the users would have bare hands or simple leather gloves. The cavalry weapons have bigger guards because I think they'd (ideally) be wearing thicker gauntlets or plate gauntlets if cuirassiers.

11th April 2023, 05:27 PM	#6
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	These things must have been a royal pain to lug around. The number of times day they must have gotten caught on a rail or doorframe is absurd.

14th April 2023, 07:13 PM	#11
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	It seems like all of these pommels could moonlight as doorknobs. Is that a feature of all Pappenheimers? Mine has the balance just in front of the guard with a 38 inch blade but the pommel still seems unwieldy for such a thin blade. My next question is this: is there a description of what a Pappenheimer is from the 17th century? Or was this just a name applied by later academics to the style of this time period. If there is period references, what are the features they name? And what are the features accepted by modern academics of what a Pappenheimer is besides a "shell" style guard?