my last keris

[A. G. Maisey]

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

My blade stays in the reverse position when she's in the bed. The handle fits between the fingers on the right side when the kris wants to see outside

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Exactly! As i stated in post #33, "Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is."
I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Exactly! As i stated in post #33, "Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is."
I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.

my post was based not on the terminology of the dapur which, honestly, I don't care that much, but on the correct insertion of that type of blade in the sheath

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

my post was based not on the terminology of the dapur which, honestly, I don't care that much, but on the correct insertion of that type of blade in the sheath

Well Marco, MY post was not a response to you at all, but rather to Alan's comments concerning the debate about what dhapur to name your blade and the great variations we encounter in keris terminology these days. So i am confused as to why you felt the need to respond to me at all, least of all with a rolled eye emoji, which i consider rather rude.
And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Well Marco, MY post was not a response to you at all, but rather to Alan's comments concerning the debate about what dhapur to name your blade and the great variations we encounter in keris terminology these days. So i am confused as to why you felt the need to respond to me at all, least of all with a rolled eye emoji, which i consider rather rude.
And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling?

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, please see my post #23

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

Well language on an international forum is always a challenge. So it is possible that you did not fully understand what Alan was trying to tell you in post #23.
The word "dapur" that you are using actually translates to the english word "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesian. I have seen this word used in certain keris literature, but it is not the correct word for the shape or profile of a keris. Most of the words that we use in keris terminology that apply to Javanese keris are in fact Javanese words, not Bahasa Indonesian. The correct word you are looking for here is the Javanese word "dhapur", which translates into English as "shape" or "form".
There are a number of cases like this where a misused spelling gets repeated enough times that it becomes a common mistake. "Peksi" is another one i see frequently when referring to the tang of a blade. That word actually means "bird", often meaning a chicken, but the proper term is actually spelled "pesi".
I hope that clears things up.