Swish of the Kris - For Wayan :)

cannonmn · 25th June 2006, 04:00 PM

Thanks for posting that pic-certainly if you ever put it up for sale, let us know (the smiley faces don't include one that is drooling, unfortunately!) That's one of the finest Filipino/Moro kris' I've ever seen.

I have a modest Filipino weapons collection with many lantakas (to save digits, will admit that some may be Filipino and many not), a suit of Moro tortoise-shell body armor with brass helmet, and a handful of edged weapons. A couple of the major items came from descendents of ca. 1902 US Secretary of War Elihu Root, who received them as gifts from military officers who had served in the Philippines.

I visited the Philippines many times while on duty in the Western Pacific in the Navy, and acquired an appreciation for the culture and art of that country.

In case this is not widely known, prior to about 1973, the Negritos were allowed to set up souvenir stands right on the Subic Bay U.S. Naval Base. They sold some new but very well-made native-type primitive weapons, which unfortunately were used by sailors in two mutinies (a.k.a. riots) aboard US aircraft carriers in the early 1970's. This led to the Negrito souvenir booths being evicted from the base.

cannonmn · 25th June 2006, 04:43 PM

Blu, I'm posting here not to hijack but as a question related to the pix of your kris posted in this thread. I notice that the blade of yours, shown in your excellent picture gallery, appears to be all one-piece.

A comment Nechesh(?) made about mine had to do with one-piece vs. having a separage "gangya" which term I did not understand. Another post seemed to clear it up with a pic of a kris blade with a separate "top piece" close to the handle which appears to be welded or sweated on. I guess this is the gangya?

Anyway, your captured kris, which appears to be pretty well documented (at least I have no doubts about it) seems to have an all-one-piece blade as well, and yours was captured in 1908.

Can I get a clarification from someone on the significance of the separate vs. one-piece blade issue? Where the issue seems to have been left, as I recall, on the other thread, was that a one-piece blade indicates post-1930 manufacture. But your pre-1909 one-piece blade seems inconsistent with that demarcation, so what's the real answer here?

Sorry for my ignorance of Southeast Asian edged-weapon terminology.

nechesh · 25th June 2006, 05:21 PM

Well, this really may be a point of contention. The 1930 line is one drawn by Cato in his book Moro Sword, for bettter or for worse the only specific book on the subject to date. I believe we have seen exceptions to this rule and i believe we even had a recent thread on it showing some documented examples. I took a close look at Blu's kris and really can't tell from his photo whether or not a seperate gangya exists (this is the same piece that is usually called the gonjo or ganja in Indonesian keris). I have an example that is so well fitted that i didn't see the seperation line for years until i gave the blade a cleaning and etching. Even so you need to magnify the area to see it. It can be like that on really well made blades. So, it hard to tell if Blu's is seperate and that is why i asked about yours. Another method used to determine age is the shape of the luks (blade curves) which tend to get pointier as the blades get more modern. Yours appear a bit pointy (not very) in the photos you presented (compare with Blu's) so i would imagine that yours is a later variety. Others who make the Moro kris their main point of study may know better as to when and to what degree of pointiness the luks are in different periods. I have seen very pointy luks on very modern versions. Also materials can be a clue to age. That is why i asked you in the other thread if the bands on the sheath were aluminium. That generally points to around or post WW2. Of course they could also have been added at a later date. Hope that helps.

cannonmn · 25th June 2006, 05:31 PM

Tx for info, I will have to get that book (looks for Amazon bookmark.)

I did reply on the scabbard bands but you prob got tired of that thread before seeing it. Top band is some kind of cloth cord and the other two are recent masking tape jerry-rigs to keep the two halves together. One very thin (1/8 in.) brass band remains next to the upper tape wrap.

nechesh · 26th June 2006, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Tx for info, I will have to get that book (looks for Amazon bookmark.)

I sent you a PM about this.

BluErf · 27th June 2006, 02:50 AM

Hi Cannonmn,

No problems; I'm more than happy to have the discussion on your moro kris brought over to this thread.

Maybe you could do a little search on past threads for "kris" and you will see many much finer examples of Moro krises owned by other forumnites here.

Its an interesting question about whether my kris is a separate-ganja piece or not. Initially, I thought a line on the metal itself would suggest a separate ganja, however, recently I learned that sometimes, such a line was chiselled into the blade to give an illusion of a separate ganja. So I'm not so sure anymore. My piece has a line, and a slight wedge-shaped gap at the aring end. Not sure if that is proof of a separate ganja.

BluErf · 27th June 2006, 02:57 AM

The gandik side. Hope the picture fits.

Rick · 25th June 2006, 05:42 PM

Cannonmn , I hope you stick around this place ; I think you're a good addition to the crew (and we don't mind talking about cannons either).

I believe your kris to be fairly recent ; say less than 80 tears old ; that's just my opinion though . There is a lot of good workmanship in your blade and I wonder if it wasn't meant for local use rather than for sale to foreigners .

One thing I find interesting is the top of the gangya area on your blade ; it looks like a relatively straight line whereas most of the pieces I have seen have a sweep or curve to them .
Check out that separate gangya pic I posted in the other thread and you'll see the difference .

Does anyone want to suggest a tribal attribution for Cannonmn's kris ?

Do you think you'd consider etching it to bring out any pattern that might be there ?

cannonmn · 25th June 2006, 05:54 PM

Rick, thanks. I really like this board, so much higher level than those I'm used to on E.

Yes I'd consider etching. I searched this board for how to do it etc. but didn't get to any "how to" post. If you could link me to any semi-thorough past discussion of it I will read it. I have other blades that are oxidized enough that I would definitely like to find out the proper way to clean,polish, etch them, and would be happy to post results when done.

Rick · 25th June 2006, 06:19 PM

First you must get the blade totally degreased and any rust removed .
I have used acetone and then a strong detergent wash followed by a thorough rinse and blow dry with heat .

If you have any hot sun where you are (there ain't any here) leave the kris out in direct hot sunlight for a couple of hours . The most gentle etchants are vinegar or strained Lime juice (lots) ; they are best when used hot ; add a drop of liquid detergent to your etchant so that it does not bead up on the blade surface .
Apply the etchant to the blade with a clean brush or rag quickly covering the entire sword and work the solution around on all the surfaces ; the trick is to keep the liquid moving so that the discoloration of the metal happens evenly .
When and if you see a pattern start to come out keep working and let it darken to the shade that you like then rinse in hot water and wash with baking soda to neutralize the etchant . There may be some tarnish left on the surface so rub the blade down with a soft dry cloth . Finish drying until the blade is warm again with a hair dryer . Spray the blade with WD40 to stabilise the surface ; wipe it clean and apply wax or gun oil .

There are other ways and maybe someone else will offer one . I like this method because it's gentle on the steel .

cannonmn · 25th June 2006, 07:17 PM

Will try that in near future, thanks!

kai · 26th June 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

I notice that the blade of yours, shown in your excellent picture gallery, appears to be all one-piece.

I'm pretty sure that a slight reetching will proove Kai Wee's kris to have a separate gangya. However, that's a mere guess - the single close-up doesn't offer enough details to judge.

Quote:

A comment Nechesh(?) made about mine had to do with one-piece vs. having a separage "gangya" which term I did not understand. Another post seemed to clear it up with a pic of a kris blade with a separate "top piece" close to the handle which appears to be welded or sweated on. I guess this is the gangya?

Yup, that's it (a separate piece of steel tightly fitted to the rest of the blade). Like Nechesh, I also seem to imagine a separate gangya for your piece:

But we definitely need an etching to decide either way!

BTW, the other kris with Naga inlay which Ron linked to has a fairly obvious separate gangya.

Quote:

Can I get a clarification from someone on the significance of the separate vs. one-piece blade issue? Where the issue seems to have been left, as I recall, on the other thread, was that a one-piece blade indicates post-1930 manufacture. But your pre-1909 one-piece blade seems inconsistent with that demarcation, so what's the real answer here?

No, the rule of thumb is the other way around: kris with separate gangya will usually be pre-1930 (but there are exceptions!). Please have a look at this recent thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2394

Regards,
Kai

ibeam · 26th June 2006, 01:36 AM

Cannonmn,

Welcome!

Any chance we can get to see the Moro Armor??

Moro armor are usually made of karabao horn plates (some brass plates) with chain mail. It would be nice to see your tortoise shell example.

25th June 2006, 04:00 PM	#1
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	fantastic kris Thanks for posting that pic-certainly if you ever put it up for sale, let us know (the smiley faces don't include one that is drooling, unfortunately!) That's one of the finest Filipino/Moro kris' I've ever seen. I have a modest Filipino weapons collection with many lantakas (to save digits, will admit that some may be Filipino and many not), a suit of Moro tortoise-shell body armor with brass helmet, and a handful of edged weapons. A couple of the major items came from descendents of ca. 1902 US Secretary of War Elihu Root, who received them as gifts from military officers who had served in the Philippines. I visited the Philippines many times while on duty in the Western Pacific in the Navy, and acquired an appreciation for the culture and art of that country. In case this is not widely known, prior to about 1973, the Negritos were allowed to set up souvenir stands right on the Subic Bay U.S. Naval Base. They sold some new but very well-made native-type primitive weapons, which unfortunately were used by sailors in two mutinies (a.k.a. riots) aboard US aircraft carriers in the early 1970's. This led to the Negrito souvenir booths being evicted from the base.

25th June 2006, 04:43 PM	#2
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	One more question about my kris Blu, I'm posting here not to hijack but as a question related to the pix of your kris posted in this thread. I notice that the blade of yours, shown in your excellent picture gallery, appears to be all one-piece. A comment Nechesh(?) made about mine had to do with one-piece vs. having a separage "gangya" which term I did not understand. Another post seemed to clear it up with a pic of a kris blade with a separate "top piece" close to the handle which appears to be welded or sweated on. I guess this is the gangya? Anyway, your captured kris, which appears to be pretty well documented (at least I have no doubts about it) seems to have an all-one-piece blade as well, and yours was captured in 1908. Can I get a clarification from someone on the significance of the separate vs. one-piece blade issue? Where the issue seems to have been left, as I recall, on the other thread, was that a one-piece blade indicates post-1930 manufacture. But your pre-1909 one-piece blade seems inconsistent with that demarcation, so what's the real answer here? Sorry for my ignorance of Southeast Asian edged-weapon terminology.

25th June 2006, 05:31 PM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	reply to Nec Tx for info, I will have to get that book (looks for Amazon bookmark.) I did reply on the scabbard bands but you prob got tired of that thread before seeing it. Top band is some kind of cloth cord and the other two are recent masking tape jerry-rigs to keep the two halves together. One very thin (1/8 in.) brass band remains next to the upper tape wrap. Attached Images

27th June 2006, 02:50 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Cannonmn, No problems; I'm more than happy to have the discussion on your moro kris brought over to this thread. Maybe you could do a little search on past threads for "kris" and you will see many much finer examples of Moro krises owned by other forumnites here. Its an interesting question about whether my kris is a separate-ganja piece or not. Initially, I thought a line on the metal itself would suggest a separate ganja, however, recently I learned that sometimes, such a line was chiselled into the blade to give an illusion of a separate ganja. So I'm not so sure anymore. My piece has a line, and a slight wedge-shaped gap at the aring end. Not sure if that is proof of a separate ganja. Attached Images

27th June 2006, 02:57 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The gandik side. Hope the picture fits. Attached Images

25th June 2006, 05:21 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, this really may be a point of contention. The 1930 line is one drawn by Cato in his book Moro Sword, for bettter or for worse the only specific book on the subject to date. I believe we have seen exceptions to this rule and i believe we even had a recent thread on it showing some documented examples. I took a close look at Blu's kris and really can't tell from his photo whether or not a seperate gangya exists (this is the same piece that is usually called the gonjo or ganja in Indonesian keris). I have an example that is so well fitted that i didn't see the seperation line for years until i gave the blade a cleaning and etching. Even so you need to magnify the area to see it. It can be like that on really well made blades. So, it hard to tell if Blu's is seperate and that is why i asked about yours. Another method used to determine age is the shape of the luks (blade curves) which tend to get pointier as the blades get more modern. Yours appear a bit pointy (not very) in the photos you presented (compare with Blu's) so i would imagine that yours is a later variety. Others who make the Moro kris their main point of study may know better as to when and to what degree of pointiness the luks are in different periods. I have seen very pointy luks on very modern versions. Also materials can be a clue to age. That is why i asked you in the other thread if the bands on the sheath were aluminium. That generally points to around or post WW2. Of course they could also have been added at a later date. Hope that helps.

25th June 2006, 05:42 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Cannonmn , I hope you stick around this place ; I think you're a good addition to the crew (and we don't mind talking about cannons either). I believe your kris to be fairly recent ; say less than 80 tears old ; that's just my opinion though . There is a lot of good workmanship in your blade and I wonder if it wasn't meant for local use rather than for sale to foreigners . One thing I find interesting is the top of the gangya area on your blade ; it looks like a relatively straight line whereas most of the pieces I have seen have a sweep or curve to them . Check out that separate gangya pic I posted in the other thread and you'll see the difference . Does anyone want to suggest a tribal attribution for Cannonmn's kris ? Do you think you'd consider etching it to bring out any pattern that might be there ?

25th June 2006, 05:54 PM	#9
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	4 Rick Rick, thanks. I really like this board, so much higher level than those I'm used to on E. Yes I'd consider etching. I searched this board for how to do it etc. but didn't get to any "how to" post. If you could link me to any semi-thorough past discussion of it I will read it. I have other blades that are oxidized enough that I would definitely like to find out the proper way to clean,polish, etch them, and would be happy to post results when done.

25th June 2006, 06:19 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	One Way First you must get the blade totally degreased and any rust removed . I have used acetone and then a strong detergent wash followed by a thorough rinse and blow dry with heat . If you have any hot sun where you are (there ain't any here) leave the kris out in direct hot sunlight for a couple of hours . The most gentle etchants are vinegar or strained Lime juice (lots) ; they are best when used hot ; add a drop of liquid detergent to your etchant so that it does not bead up on the blade surface . Apply the etchant to the blade with a clean brush or rag quickly covering the entire sword and work the solution around on all the surfaces ; the trick is to keep the liquid moving so that the discoloration of the metal happens evenly . When and if you see a pattern start to come out keep working and let it darken to the shade that you like then rinse in hot water and wash with baking soda to neutralize the etchant . There may be some tarnish left on the surface so rub the blade down with a soft dry cloth . Finish drying until the blade is warm again with a hair dryer . Spray the blade with WD40 to stabilise the surface ; wipe it clean and apply wax or gun oil . There are other ways and maybe someone else will offer one . I like this method because it's gentle on the steel .

25th June 2006, 07:17 PM	#11
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Tx Rick Will try that in near future, thanks!

26th June 2006, 01:36 AM	#13
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	Moro Armor Cannonmn, Welcome! Any chance we can get to see the Moro Armor?? Moro armor are usually made of karabao horn plates (some brass plates) with chain mail. It would be nice to see your tortoise shell example.