Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Teisani

One of the first evidences for boot hilt and knuckle bow

Is this term "boot hilt" used in Hungarian or any other language? Fits well to describe that construction.

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Is this term "boot hilt" used in Hungarian or any other language? Fits well to describe that construction.

I remember seeing this term somewhere online many years ago. I like using it, it's short and descriptive. I don't remember if it was ever used in published literature.

I also propose the term banana-hilts for these:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=20
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=21
This term will be my contribution to science and humanity. People will forget about that pretender Gilgamesh and instead write stories on clay tablets about me.

[Teisani]

Hungarian king Miksa => Imre Orlle of Karva, Miklós Orlle of Karva | renewal of coat of arms 1571. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1331

[Teisani]

Bocskay Istvan 1606. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/137

[Teisani]

This is interesting. A very early depiction of boot-hilt sabres on this document from the king of Hungary, Ulászló II, 1507.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1988
Although it is also here by Miksa in 1572. Strange. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1960

[Teisani]

Ulászló II king of Hungary from 1507. I would consider this an Ottoman banana-hilt...yes, I'm making standard designation
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/3919

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Teisani

I also propose the term banana-hilts for these

Speaking about those, banana-hilt is the better choice in comparison to an obvious alternative which found its way into nomenclature of medieval daggers

Originally Posted by Teisani

Figure 8 koncerz from 1559

Could be as well a side-sword or rapier in my opinion but I guess thats of minor importance. Again, I think one of, if not the most important specifications of a Koncerz is it´s role as a sword-lance from horseback with a lenght that was unsuitable for mounting it on a persons belt The use of piercing swords from horseback and the possibility to use them on foot would have been extensive and reality would most probably allow no clear dinstinction between types (as can be observed in the discussion about Szabl(y)a, Pallasch, Kard, Koncerz and so on). In todays discussion however a more or less clear nomenclature can help in the discussion and I think we should open up a thread someday to discuss that matter especially for east-central to east European arms and armour on the background of successful Western-European paragon.

[Teisani]

I would classify these swords with thin blades with acute points, pommels and figure-8 guards as koncerz / estoc / hegyestőr, because we have remnant specimens that match the iconography. You can find here an article with many pictures of this type of weapon. https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/vi...g=181&layout=s

From what I can tell, based on iconography gathered so far, koncerz were of two main types, pommeled with cross/U/8-guards or boot-hilted with cross/L/N-guards. You can see pommeled koncerz on the Stockholm Roll with the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow, 1605. I talked about the Moldovan envoy's here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=97
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=98

Now let's look at some others from the Stockholm Roll. You can see below other individuals wearing the same kind of golden sword with narrow sccabard and lack of knuckle-bow as the Moldovan envoy. Others are wearing swords under their left leg with knuckle-bows, boot-hilts and wide scabbards. I would call these pallos / pallash / palasz since the wide scabbards indicate wide blades for cutting.




Now here is a problem... some are in a grey zone. It's difficult sometimes to clearly define a sword as koncerz or pallash. Same probleam as in the case of side-sword versus rapier.
For example the swords below, I would define as pallash without hesitation. And they show the Ottoman origins of the wide pallash in Europe.
https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/372961/?lv=detail Skanderbeg
https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/20...ardja.html?m=1 Thury Gyorgy



But what about the bottom one in this picture. Shorter than usual, can cut, but still very thrust-centric. Most would say koncerz, but I would say that calling it a pallash is also reasonable, because it would have functioned as one due to its blade length.


And sometimes you get wide blades in these pommeled koncerz hilts.


Now for a recap:
Effigies
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=63
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=64
Painted art
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=81
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=92
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...8&postcount=95
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=96
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=100
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=105
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=108
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=110 in this one you can see the hussar going against the Ottoman lancer. So koncerz vs. lance.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=113

It also occurred to me just now, after all these depictions in effigies and paintings, that these N-quillons, most likely, actually existed. I initially considered Stroe Buzescu's sword with N-quillons as artistic license or a unique specimen due to "eccentric rich guy" sindrome. Se here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=61
Now it seems, it may not be so implausible.

[awdaniec666]

This is interesting and thanks for posting those links.
It seems to me that the concept of the Hegyestőr in Hungary and it´s specifications differs depending on which time period one is looking at. In Polish literature Koncerz means basically the over-long Estoc with Hungarian hilt from the 17th century onwards. Going through the information provided by you - and this makes sense since this weapon interpretation came from Hungary most possibly - discussed weapon (here the hegyestőr) design has in fact been shorter and carried by the belt.


"A hegyestőrök a 15. században jelentek meg, Stiborici Stibor a sírkövén jobb oldalára fölkötött hegyestőrt visel."

(Hegyestőr appeared in the 15th century, Stibor Stiborici wears a Hegyestőr tied to the right side of his tombstone.)


"A katonák nem a derekukra kötötték, hanem a nyereg jobb oldalára
erősítették."

(The soldiers did not tie it around their waists, but attached it to the right side of the saddle.)

Source:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegyest%C5%91r

[Teisani]

To clarify, in this discussion, I reffer to:
N-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane parallel to the sword's longitudinal axis.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=66


S-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane perpendicular to the sword's longitudinal axis.



K-quillons as these, János Kemény and Ferenc Bethlen swords




8-guard



L-guard (normal and reverse)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679322061
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679327742
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679324305
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679401849

U-guard

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary grants Tamás Baráthy CoA. 1580 Prague. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6871