Johannes Hoppe Rapier and Dagger

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 11:50 AM

Please be aware that I am no expert outside of my primary research which is Shotley Bridge; although inevitably, this extends in either direction to Hounslow and early Birmingham, but only slightly.
I also have few resources of reference beyond the basics… so:
I looked in Bezdek and this seems to be Johannes Hoppe the Elder.
His symbol was The Wildman (see att).
His dates are 1580 - 1645; although they might also be 1570 - 1640.
He does not appear to have ever left Solingen.
I also looked in Norman, and because of that distinctive branching guard and the pommel shape, while neither example was exact - but perhaps near enough, the date, considering Hoppe's life dates, would be ca. 1630 - 35.
Just out of interest, Johannes Hoppe the Younger had a similar symbol (see att) but it is not yours; he was over in England most of his adult life.
Mine is an amateur job and it really needs the attention of an expert; perhaps Jim might take a look.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 11:55 AM

Did you find that sword near you in San Diego?
Do you have any provenance?
It is a very fine rapier... munitions grade of course... but that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

fernando · 15th March 2023, 02:00 PM

What a fine couple, SwordLover

.

fernando · 15th March 2023, 02:13 PM

Keith, are you familiar with Sir James Mann's 'Wallace Collection' work ... page 327 for the case. ?

.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 07:31 PM

Thank-you Fernando; I was not familiar with that document but it more or less says what I had found so my research was probably correct.
Thank-you again, for moving this thread, after we hi-jacked the Pinch of Snuff thread.

Do you think we are looking at a Spanish import into Mexico during the 1600s?

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2023, 07:38 PM

This excellent rapier and dagger ensuite in my view are by the elder Johannes Hoppe (Happe); 1570-1640 and from Solingen. His mark was the so called 'wild man' as termed, and which was later used in degree by his son Johann who was b.1600.
In 1629 the younger Hoppe moved to Greenwich England, and did not go to Hounslow until 1634.

C. Trenchard, in "German Swordsmiths in England" ('Antique Collector' Sept.1934, Vol.V, pp.245-248) states that it is unlikely of course that the elder Hoppe would have gone to England and is known to have died in Solingen in 1640.

While several blades signed by IOHANNES HOPPE are known, those from England are quite rare, with one IOANNES HOPPIE FECIT LONDON ; another form JOANNES HOPPIE ME FECIT HOUNSLOW.
Important is the one JOHANNES HOPPIE 1634 GRENEWICH IN ANGLIA which is on a 'mortuary sword'.

That seems to be the only cases on HOPPIE in England with only the Greenwich having date.

These kinds of 'sets' of rapier/dagger are more likely it seems to be European, aligning with the probability of this being the work of Johannes Hoppe the elder in Solingen.

it is often hard tracking these 'dynasties' of sword makers as they often used the same Christian names from father to son.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 08:10 PM

Hi Jim.
I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work.
Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s.
You seem to be au fait with this area and this period.
Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them.
Regardless... they are a prize possession.

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2023, 10:19 PM

Hi Keith,
Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors.
In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers.

California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s.
Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas.

I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times.

I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier.
It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.

15th March 2023, 11:50 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 621	Johannes Hoppe the Elder Please be aware that I am no expert outside of my primary research which is Shotley Bridge; although inevitably, this extends in either direction to Hounslow and early Birmingham, but only slightly. I also have few resources of reference beyond the basics… so: I looked in Bezdek and this seems to be Johannes Hoppe the Elder. His symbol was The Wildman (see att). His dates are 1580 - 1645; although they might also be 1570 - 1640. He does not appear to have ever left Solingen. I also looked in Norman, and because of that distinctive branching guard and the pommel shape, while neither example was exact - but perhaps near enough, the date, considering Hoppe's life dates, would be ca. 1630 - 35. Just out of interest, Johannes Hoppe the Younger had a similar symbol (see att) but it is not yours; he was over in England most of his adult life. Mine is an amateur job and it really needs the attention of an expert; perhaps Jim might take a look. Attached Images

15th March 2023, 11:55 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 621	ps Did you find that sword near you in San Diego? Do you have any provenance? It is a very fine rapier... munitions grade of course... but that makes it more interesting in my opinion.

15th March 2023, 02:13 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hoppe/Happe/Hoppie Keith, are you familiar with Sir James Mann's 'Wallace Collection' work ... page 327 for the case. ? . Attached Images

15th March 2023, 07:31 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 621	two thanks to Fernando. Thank-you Fernando; I was not familiar with that document but it more or less says what I had found so my research was probably correct. Thank-you again, for moving this thread, after we hi-jacked the Pinch of Snuff thread. Do you think we are looking at a Spanish import into Mexico during the 1600s?

15th March 2023, 08:10 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 621	misleading comment Hi Jim. I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work. Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s. You seem to be au fait with this area and this period. Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them. Regardless... they are a prize possession.

15th March 2023, 02:00 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What a fine couple, SwordLover .

15th March 2023, 07:38 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	This excellent rapier and dagger ensuite in my view are by the elder Johannes Hoppe (Happe); 1570-1640 and from Solingen. His mark was the so called 'wild man' as termed, and which was later used in degree by his son Johann who was b.1600. In 1629 the younger Hoppe moved to Greenwich England, and did not go to Hounslow until 1634. C. Trenchard, in "German Swordsmiths in England" ('Antique Collector' Sept.1934, Vol.V, pp.245-248) states that it is unlikely of course that the elder Hoppe would have gone to England and is known to have died in Solingen in 1640. While several blades signed by IOHANNES HOPPE are known, those from England are quite rare, with one IOANNES HOPPIE FECIT LONDON ; another form JOANNES HOPPIE ME FECIT HOUNSLOW. Important is the one JOHANNES HOPPIE 1634 GRENEWICH IN ANGLIA which is on a 'mortuary sword'. That seems to be the only cases on HOPPIE in England with only the Greenwich having date. These kinds of 'sets' of rapier/dagger are more likely it seems to be European, aligning with the probability of this being the work of Johannes Hoppe the elder in Solingen. it is often hard tracking these 'dynasties' of sword makers as they often used the same Christian names from father to son.

15th March 2023, 10:19 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Keith, Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors. In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers. California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s. Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas. I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times. I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier. It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.