Rapier ID

SwordLover79 · 16th February 2023, 07:11 PM

my best attempt to photograph the marks in the fullers...thanks for your help!!!

fernando · 17th February 2023, 10:09 AM

Really a hard job to figure out. Looks like both pictures are from the same side; maybe the other side shows different lettering. Also looks like these two are upside down

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Reventlov · 17th February 2023, 12:01 PM

It looks to me there are only three letters (M, A or V, and..?) that repeat in semi-regular order, not an actual word or name. There are other examples like this - I have seen several recently, but now I can only remember this one, marked CAINO, with on either side the letters:

N S R N S R N S G

https://www.rct.uk/collection/search...3/rapier-blade

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2023, 01:36 PM

These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance.
As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

werecow · 17th February 2023, 01:41 PM

Is it me or does that say "MAMA"?

SwordLover79 · 17th February 2023, 02:10 PM

I can assure you that the photos are of the two sides of the blade. They do look identical. In addition to the symbols/characters inside the fullers, there are small punched or engraved arrow or cross shapes at the end of each fuller.

fernando · 17th February 2023, 05:05 PM

SwordLover, time for you to have a look in the ricasso, (inside the hilt 'basket') and check whether the CAINO personal marks are struck in there.

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Reventlov · 18th February 2023, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance.
As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Sir James Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, various entries) describes numerous rapiers, all with CAINO blades, various marks and typically dated c.1610 (one as early as 1580) on Flemish, German hilts, one on a Spanish cuphilt c. 1625.
The letter combinations are the same sequencing, using various letters, often reversed on the opposing blade face.
i.e. RSNRSNRSND , one side SRNSRNSRND other. The same three letters repeated three times then with a separate terminating letter.

Thanks Jim for reminding me of these! Do you know if anyone has attempted to decipher any of these acrostics? The RSN/SRN sequence has commonalities with much older medieval inscriptions, can't help but wonder if this is more than coincidence...

fernando · 18th February 2023, 02:43 PM

Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.

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cornelistromp · 18th February 2023, 04:03 PM

the rapier is english and with a screwed nuckleguard on the pommel circa 1630-1640.
The inscription in the fuller MOMOM can be found on the following rapiers, among others.
one landsknecht rapier in my collection from the second half of the 16th century in combination with a crowned B , probably Peter Tesche Solingen.
A598 in the wallace collection , also with a crowned B on the ricasso.
The Keasbey sale 1924, lot 231 ( also has a silver incrusted hilt)
The Keasbey sale 1925 lot 104. this is multi bar rapier ( skeleton - or spangen rapier)

but..... lot Keasbey 1925 lot 105 , looks a lot like the above rapier and is described as one of the most important pieces from this collection.

best
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2023, 06:03 AM

[QUOTE=fernando;279150]Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though.

Thanks Fernando, good thread! but havent been back down that road in a while. Definitely one I'd like to look into deeper, so many roads.....never enough time

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It does seem it was a matter of both, not just one or the other.

16th February 2023, 07:11 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	English Rapier? my best attempt to photograph the marks in the fullers...thanks for your help!!! Attached Images

17th February 2023, 10:09 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Really a hard job to figure out. Looks like both pictures are from the same side; maybe the other side shows different lettering. Also looks like these two are upside down . . Attached Images

17th February 2023, 12:01 PM	#3
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	It looks to me there are only three letters (M, A or V, and..?) that repeat in semi-regular order, not an actual word or name. There are other examples like this - I have seen several recently, but now I can only remember this one, marked CAINO, with on either side the letters: N S R N S R N S G https://www.rct.uk/collection/search...3/rapier-blade Attached Images

17th February 2023, 02:10 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Rapier ID Photos I can assure you that the photos are of the two sides of the blade. They do look identical. In addition to the symbols/characters inside the fullers, there are small punched or engraved arrow or cross shapes at the end of each fuller.

17th February 2023, 05:05 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	SwordLover, time for you to have a look in the ricasso, (inside the hilt 'basket') and check whether the CAINO personal marks are struck in there. . Attached Images

17th February 2023, 01:36 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	These letter groupings are acrostics, well known to have been used in these Brescian regions of Italy on their blades in 16th-17th c. They are often first letters of phrases, mottos, or invocations however in these repeated letter forms may have other arcane significance. As noted, CAINO was one of the key proponents of this fashion.

17th February 2023, 01:41 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	Is it me or does that say "MAMA"?

18th February 2023, 02:43 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Puzzling inscriptions, puzzling signature Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though. .

18th February 2023, 04:03 PM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the rapier is english and with a screwed nuckleguard on the pommel circa 1630-1640. The inscription in the fuller MOMOM can be found on the following rapiers, among others. one landsknecht rapier in my collection from the second half of the 16th century in combination with a crowned B , probably Peter Tesche Solingen. A598 in the wallace collection , also with a crowned B on the ricasso. The Keasbey sale 1924, lot 231 ( also has a silver incrusted hilt) The Keasbey sale 1925 lot 104. this is multi bar rapier ( skeleton - or spangen rapier) but..... lot Keasbey 1925 lot 105 , looks a lot like the above rapier and is described as one of the most important pieces from this collection. best Jasper Attached Images

19th February 2023, 06:03 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	[QUOTE=fernando;279150]Jim, you remember this thread on the Caino subject. I wonder whether you made some progress on the riddle over Master Caino being Peter in his first name and his blades being always crowned with a S or a MS, and never with a P. Anything relative to the region where he used to worked ? Not likely, though. Thanks Fernando, good thread! but havent been back down that road in a while. Definitely one I'd like to look into deeper, so many roads.....never enough time . It does seem it was a matter of both, not just one or the other.