Large lantaka with Jawi script engraved

The Double D · 23rd June 2006, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

... They were indeed made in Europe also ; and out of brass ...

Not Brass, Bronze

Raja Muda · 23rd June 2006, 02:00 AM

Greetings all,

My two cents.
From the engraved script, I'm guessing it was the name of the owner of the lantaka (rentaka in Malay). My guess reading of it is 'Pemaka Datu Muhammad Iskandar Jamalul Kiram, anaknya Muhammad Tunnu?

I'm not sure of the extent of Jawi use in Moroland in the past, but it was the predominant script for the Brunei Malays, and was used by the Bugis alongside their indigenous script, so most Islamised peoples in the region are familiar with it, at least through the medium of Malay, which was the main trade Lingua Franca.

The example here is similar to the ones in the collection of the National Museum in Kuala Lumpur, as well as one I saw in Kuching, Sarawak some time ago. My theory is that they are local small sized cannons, though aesthetically influenced by European styles, such as the dolphin handles and scroll work you usually see on VOC cannons in the Dutch East Indies.

I might be wrong, but I guess the Kris wielding warriors of this forum would be able to extend some much needed help

cannonmn · 23rd June 2006, 05:24 AM

Thanks very much for the input so far, particularly for the name of the ruler, no one had ever come up with that before (probably because I never asked a Malaysian!)

Anyway, so the pictures are more readily available than on the other post, I'm reposting them here. I'm new to posting here so I don't know if the pix will show up or not.

Pictures:

 
<img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/6jpg.jpg"> <img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/2jpg.jpg"> <img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/3jpg.jpg"> and a few more: <a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/1jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/1jpg.jpg</a> <a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/4jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/4jpg.jpg</a> <a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/5jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/5jpg.jpg</a> <a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/7jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/7jpg.jpg</a> <a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/8jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/8jpg.jpg</a>
 
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cannonmn · 23rd June 2006, 05:40 AM

Now I see how you do it in this forum:

cannonmn · 23rd June 2006, 12:47 PM

Raja, thanks again for "romanizing" the script. I copied that over to the Ebay board and a frequent poster there, an American expat. living in Bali, did a partial translation of it, but he did not know one word. I'm copying part of his post here. Ultimately I'd like to get at the full meaning of the script. All I know now is that it has one or two names in it, but I'm not really sure of their relationship.

Since the inscription makes note, “anaknya Muhammad Tunnu, meaning child, or in this case son, of Muhammed Tannu, presumably this Muhammed Tannu was an important man...a “datu” (headman) of even greater stature than Iskander Jamalul. You may want to post a question on that forum as to what “pemaka” means as I can’t interpret it, being a Malay word that did not make its way into Bahasa Indonesia.

Thanks very much in advance!

Battara · 23rd June 2006, 05:38 PM

No Moro at all. More Portuguese/Indonesian, especially with the type of dolphins in the middle and the floral style at the end.

cannonmn · 23rd June 2006, 06:07 PM

>No Moro at all.

Maybe I assumed too much. I guess I need to know more about exactly what the title "Datu" indicates. I thought it was unique to Moros, but if not, someone please let me know.

If there is any place to look up this particular, named Datu, please let me know-would like to know where he lived and when.

cannonmn · 23rd June 2006, 06:25 PM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ition&ct=title

So now I am smarter, the title of Datu has much broader application than just certain Moros in the Philippines.

Pangeran Datu · 23rd June 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

>No Moro at all.

Maybe I assumed too much. I guess I need to know more about exactly what the title "Datu" indicates. I thought it was unique to Moros, but if not, someone please let me know.

If there is any place to look up this particular, named Datu, please let me know-would like to know where he lived and when.

Hi,
Just my two-bobs' worth:
'Datu' had/has various meanings, depending on the time and region (throughout the South-east Asian archipelago) of usage. It can mean anything from a village chief to a king (cf. 'raja', 'tumenggung). Remember, in the past, it was easy for anyone to open up an area (in fact, quite customery for members of a ruling family) and set up a 'state' and give himself/herself any title... woe betide that person should some existing ruler challenge that title!

In some areas, 'datu' is even accepted to be the origin of 'ratu' (king).

Cheers.

23rd June 2006, 02:00 AM	#2
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Name of Moro Ruler Greetings all, My two cents. From the engraved script, I'm guessing it was the name of the owner of the lantaka (rentaka in Malay). My guess reading of it is 'Pemaka Datu Muhammad Iskandar Jamalul Kiram, anaknya Muhammad Tunnu? I'm not sure of the extent of Jawi use in Moroland in the past, but it was the predominant script for the Brunei Malays, and was used by the Bugis alongside their indigenous script, so most Islamised peoples in the region are familiar with it, at least through the medium of Malay, which was the main trade Lingua Franca. The example here is similar to the ones in the collection of the National Museum in Kuala Lumpur, as well as one I saw in Kuching, Sarawak some time ago. My theory is that they are local small sized cannons, though aesthetically influenced by European styles, such as the dolphin handles and scroll work you usually see on VOC cannons in the Dutch East Indies. I might be wrong, but I guess the Kris wielding warriors of this forum would be able to extend some much needed help

23rd June 2006, 05:24 AM	#3
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks! Here are pix. Thanks very much for the input so far, particularly for the name of the ruler, no one had ever come up with that before (probably because I never asked a Malaysian!) Anyway, so the pictures are more readily available than on the other post, I'm reposting them here. I'm new to posting here so I don't know if the pix will show up or not. Pictures: <br><br> <img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/6jpg.jpg"><br><br><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/2jpg.jpg"><br><br><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/3jpg.jpg"><br><br>and a few more:<br><br><br><a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/1jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/1jpg.jpg</a><br><a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/4jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/4jpg.jpg</a><br><a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/5jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/5jpg.jpg</a><br><a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/7jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/7jpg.jpg</a><br><a href="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/8jpg.jpg">http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/8jpg.jpg</a> <br><br> </td> </tr>

23rd June 2006, 05:40 AM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	2nd try for pix Now I see how you do it in this forum: Attached Images

23rd June 2006, 12:47 PM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	for Raja Muda re: Jawi script translation Raja, thanks again for "romanizing" the script. I copied that over to the Ebay board and a frequent poster there, an American expat. living in Bali, did a partial translation of it, but he did not know one word. I'm copying part of his post here. Ultimately I'd like to get at the full meaning of the script. All I know now is that it has one or two names in it, but I'm not really sure of their relationship. Since the inscription makes note, “anaknya Muhammad Tunnu, meaning child, or in this case son, of Muhammed Tannu, presumably this Muhammed Tannu was an important man...a “datu” (headman) of even greater stature than Iskander Jamalul. You may want to post a question on that forum as to what “pemaka” means as I can’t interpret it, being a Malay word that did not make its way into Bahasa Indonesia. Thanks very much in advance!

23rd June 2006, 06:07 PM	#7
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks Battara. >No Moro at all. Maybe I assumed too much. I guess I need to know more about exactly what the title "Datu" indicates. I thought it was unique to Moros, but if not, someone please let me know. If there is any place to look up this particular, named Datu, please let me know-would like to know where he lived and when.

23rd June 2006, 05:38 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	No Moro at all. More Portuguese/Indonesian, especially with the type of dolphins in the middle and the floral style at the end.

23rd June 2006, 06:25 PM	#8
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	web definition of Datu http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ition&ct=title So now I am smarter, the title of Datu has much broader application than just certain Moros in the Philippines.