Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms

gp · 2nd February 2023, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.

Thank you for your reply but this is what I wanted to avoid: the Bulgarian “claim” on everything relating to Macedonia or justification of the many “interpretations” between two “brothers” or if you like “cousins” in the region.

Being Bulgarian does not mean you are right, neither do I claim it to be: I am just a simply “cloggy” , i.e. Dutch with a connection to several Balkan countries ( Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Albania)
Nor do I want to start a polemic like Edith Durham and R. W. Seton-Watson had on Serbia and Albania.

Hence my request to the mods to delete the 3rd picture which is the source of TVV’s “firm” reaction.

Question to TVV: what type of weapons did they ( Bulgarians and Makedonians on the pictures) use and what is the difference between the weapons : if there's one ?

TVV · 2nd February 2023, 11:22 PM

For that particular period of time, especially when it comes to the fighters in question, you can use the term Macedonians and Bulgarians interchangeably, since we are talking about the same people. While the weapon of choice was probably a Mannlicher carbine, the panoply included almost every imaginable system available in Europe at the time that they could get their hands on, though standard military patterns are outside the scope of this forum. When it comes to edged weapons, the kamas and yataghans that were used are virtually indistinguishable from those used throughout the Balkans, especially the Eastern Balkans in these times and the preceding century.

gp · 3rd February 2023, 10:43 PM

and now for something completely different....

drawings of the Pandurs between 1742 -1760 ; in service of the Habsburg Empire in Hungary / Croatia ...the borderland and mostly know as Baron Franz von der Trenck's pandurs. not to be mistaken with his cousin Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck. Although both lead a colorful life .

gp · 3rd February 2023, 10:45 PM

some close up details; Pandurs and zhusars in battle

mahratt · 16th February 2023, 12:09 PM

Khassadars with choora daggers, Waziristan, 1920

dat_man · 20th February 2023, 10:12 PM

Bedouins with spears/ lances

kronckew · 21st February 2023, 01:32 AM

Camel corps of King abdul-Aziz, Head of the Saudis.

In 1902, the Saudi bedouins recapture the Masmak Fort in Riyadh, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was reborn after 3 years of further battles. They surprised the enemy garrison. As they charged the rapidly closing gate, a camel lancer hurled his spear at the gate, the blade stuck in the door, and snapped off. It is still there. They stormed the fort and captured it.

The Camel warriors, the gate, and the fort:

3rd February 2023, 10:43 PM	#3
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 926	and now for something completely different.... drawings of the Pandurs between 1742 -1760 ; in service of the Habsburg Empire in Hungary / Croatia ...the borderland and mostly know as Baron Franz von der Trenck's pandurs. not to be mistaken with his cousin Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck. Although both lead a colorful life . Attached Images Last edited by gp; 3rd February 2023 at 10:56 PM.

3rd February 2023, 10:45 PM	#4
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 926	some close up details; Pandurs and zhusars in battle Attached Images Last edited by gp; 3rd February 2023 at 10:57 PM.

16th February 2023, 12:09 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Khassadars with choora daggers, Waziristan, 1920 Attached Images

20th February 2023, 10:12 PM	#6
dat_man Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 16	Bedouins with spears/ lances Attached Images

21st February 2023, 01:32 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	Camel corps of King abdul-Aziz, Head of the Saudis. In 1902, the Saudi bedouins recapture the Masmak Fort in Riyadh, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was reborn after 3 years of further battles. They surprised the enemy garrison. As they charged the rapidly closing gate, a camel lancer hurled his spear at the gate, the blade stuck in the door, and snapped off. It is still there. They stormed the fort and captured it. The Camel warriors, the gate, and the fort: Attached Images

2nd February 2023, 11:22 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	For that particular period of time, especially when it comes to the fighters in question, you can use the term Macedonians and Bulgarians interchangeably, since we are talking about the same people. While the weapon of choice was probably a Mannlicher carbine, the panoply included almost every imaginable system available in Europe at the time that they could get their hands on, though standard military patterns are outside the scope of this forum. When it comes to edged weapons, the kamas and yataghans that were used are virtually indistinguishable from those used throughout the Balkans, especially the Eastern Balkans in these times and the preceding century.