Dating the Schiavons sword

Cathey · 14th January 2023, 04:52 AM

Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture.

I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted and available:

AKEHURST, Richard Antique Weapons - for Pleasure and Investment Pp 8,
ALEKSIC Marko Mediaeval Swords from South-eastern Europe Pp 7, 9, 20-22, 98, 192-194
Article: A Venetian excellence: the Schiavona
BECK Carl Waffensammlung Schiavona, Italian/Venetian, 2nd Half Of The 18th Century
BINK Jean The Schiavona
BLAIR, Claude The James A. De Rothschild Collection At Waddesdon Manor - Arms, Armour and Base-Metalwork Pp 78, 79, 80,
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 3, 10, 16, 52, 84, Plate 176, 219 Schiavona Dagger
BOCCIA L.G., COELHO E.T., EDITRICE B. Armi Bianche Italiane Pp 23, Plates 765 – 770, Pp 386-387, 421-422
Boris V Schiavona – the sword of warrior Slovenes
Bozzolan Millo The Schiavona Sword, A Balkan Weapon, But Probably Born In Belluno
Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima
DEMMIN Auguste An Illustrated History of Arms & Armour Pp 379, 388, 432, 564
DUFTY Arthur Richard European Swords and Daggers in the Tower of London pp 23, 34, Plate 44-45
Ehretsmann Martin The Skeleton Guard & the Fishnet Guard
FFOULKES C J The Armouries of the Tower of London Vol 2Pp 287, 288
FFOULKES Charles Armour & Weapons Pp 101, 102
FFOULKES Charles European Arms and Armour in the University of Oxford Pp 34, 35
FLIEGEL, Stephen N. ARMS AND ARMOR THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM OF ART Pp 116, 168, 169, 178
FORD-Roger-weapon a visual history of arms and armor Pp 106
FORRER R European Sword Pommels Pp 38
GARCIA Andrew F The Collector' Course on Medieval Arms & Armour Pp 33, 261, 243, 264, 265, 266, 269, 298-299, 309, 343, 331,
HELD Robert Art, Arms and Armour An International Anthology Pp 59, 64, 71
HUTTON, Alfred, F.S.A. The Sword and the Centuries Plate 288,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 1 Fig 232, Pp IX, XXIV, 193
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 2 302,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 4 Pp 325 - 328,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 5 Pp 318, 322, 342, 345, 370
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Pp 66, 67, Plate 181-183, Pp 384, 432, 440
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER 66, 384, 432
Overseas Regiment (Schiavoni)
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury Pp 322
OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191
PIREK, Michal Schiavonas: Venetian swords in Bratislava castle's collection
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster Pp 96
PUYPE Jan Piet The Visser Collection Volume 1 Part 3 Pp 130, 132,
Robinson Nathan Spotlight: The Schiavona and its Influences
SACH, Jan & KRAUS,Valtr Illustriertes Lexikon der Hieb- und Stichwaffen Schiavona 72/75, 116-119/138-142, 253
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 1 schiavoni 170, 171
SEITZ Heribert – Blankwaffen 2 schiavona 32, 108, 113, 117, 122- 126
SERCER Marija Shiavona references
Shiavona Ross Arms
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 25, 152 Schiavona, 269, 271, 34, 415-418 Schiavoni, 271, 34
STONE-G-C-Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour Pp 181, 544, 595,
TARASSUK Leonid & BLAIR Claude The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms & Weapons Pp 416
The Perfect Sword Slave
The Schiavona Sword-A 17th century Croatian Masterpiece
Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki
WAGNER Eduard Cut and Thrust Weapons Pp 29, 99, 172, 173
WAGNER, Eduard SWORDS AND DAGGERS Hamlyn Pp 35, 75,
WILKINSON Frederick Swords & Daggers Schiavona pp 24; 78, 79
WILKINSON-LATHAM R.J. Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets Pp 8, 39
WILKINSON-LATHAM Robert Swords in Colour Including other Edged Weapons Pp Schiavona, 19, 25, 26.
WITHERS Harvey J S The World Encyclopedia of Swords and Sabres Pp 48, 167, 169, 246, 249, 250
WITHERS, Harvey J.S. World Swords 1400 – 1945 Pp 27, 28, 29,

I was wondering if anyone either has or can recommend some additional references I might consult.

The plan at this stage is to focus mostly on the hilt construction and pommel variations. As with Scottish Basket Hilts, blades are not much use for dating purposes as they were often imported or family blades reused.

Cheers Cathey

cornelistromp · 14th January 2023, 01:25 PM

Hi Cathey,

yes : Ubojite Ostrice

best regards
Jasper

Cathey · 14th January 2023, 11:31 PM

Hi Jasper,

I havn't been able to locate a copy of this book for sale. Would you be able to scan the pages for me that relate to Schiavona's or photograph them as flat as possible so I can convert to PDF and translate them.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 15th January 2023, 03:57 AM

Hi Guys,

I have just reread Oakeshott and thing his reference to the hole in the pommel has been misunderstood. He dose suggest that what ever fixed the hilt to the pommel via this hole is often replaced.

This is what he actually says in OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191

“In a few cases, there is a small hole pierced in the upper dexter part of the pommel, to which the little curl at the top of the knuckle-guard element of the basket is fastened. Surviving examples, if they are fastened at all, have a little piece of wire to do the job; these are mostly modern replacements, but there can be little doubt that in their original state, wire was used.”

Cheer Cathey

Victrix · 15th January 2023, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture.

I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted…

Cathey that’s an impressive bibliography you have compiled.

I believe the men in the picture are supposed to be so-called Uskoks. You can read about them here (fascinating read!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

There seem to be some translation errors in your list of bibliography translating Slav into slave (fast Google error?). I propose replacing slave with Slavic or Slavonian. I understand the word is related to “slovo” which is Slavic for “word” (i.e. share the same language). Hence Slovenia, Slovakia, Slavonia, etc.

Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima
The Perfect Sword Slave
Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki

Oliver Pinchot · 15th January 2023, 04:20 PM

The guard, at least, of the silver-mounted schiavona shown in #13 above, can be identified as Boka Kotorska work from Crna Gora (Montenegro.) Compare the silver-inlaid motifs and technique with that on the barrel of a type of musket, the Dzeferdar, likewise produced there:

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2023, 07:48 PM

Cathey,
This thread is such a great reference resource, and I wanted to add some of the notes I had in my files ( my apologies for the haphazard character ). While far from the standard of the research you and Rex maintain, I hope perhaps there might be bits and references which might be useful.

In the reference from Konipsky and Moudry, on Hapsburg swords, note the KOSARICE pommel, which is an unusual exception to the distinctive 'cats head' pommels on the schiavona.

Despite the way it looks, there is a modicum of organization in the corpus of notes and files of MANY years of eclectic research, and adventure

Best regards
Jim

14th January 2023, 01:25 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Cathey, yes : Ubojite Ostrice best regards Jasper Attached Images

14th January 2023, 11:31 PM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Schiavona Reference Hi Jasper, I havn't been able to locate a copy of this book for sale. Would you be able to scan the pages for me that relate to Schiavona's or photograph them as flat as possible so I can convert to PDF and translate them. Thanks in advance. Cheers Cathey

15th January 2023, 03:57 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Back to the hole in the pommel Hi Guys, I have just reread Oakeshott and thing his reference to the hole in the pommel has been misunderstood. He dose suggest that what ever fixed the hilt to the pommel via this hole is often replaced. This is what he actually says in OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191 “In a few cases, there is a small hole pierced in the upper dexter part of the pommel, to which the little curl at the top of the knuckle-guard element of the basket is fastened. Surviving examples, if they are fastened at all, have a little piece of wire to do the job; these are mostly modern replacements, but there can be little doubt that in their original state, wire was used.” Cheer Cathey

15th January 2023, 04:20 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	The guard, at least, of the silver-mounted schiavona shown in #13 above, can be identified as Boka Kotorska work from Crna Gora (Montenegro.) Compare the silver-inlaid motifs and technique with that on the barrel of a type of musket, the Dzeferdar, likewise produced there: Attached Images

15th January 2023, 07:48 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Schiavona notes, passim Cathey, This thread is such a great reference resource, and I wanted to add some of the notes I had in my files ( my apologies for the haphazard character ). While far from the standard of the research you and Rex maintain, I hope perhaps there might be bits and references which might be useful. In the reference from Konipsky and Moudry, on Hapsburg swords, note the KOSARICE pommel, which is an unusual exception to the distinctive 'cats head' pommels on the schiavona. Despite the way it looks, there is a modicum of organization in the corpus of notes and files of MANY years of eclectic research, and adventure Best regards Jim Attached Images

14th January 2023, 04:52 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The Schiavona Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture. I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted and available: AKEHURST, Richard Antique Weapons - for Pleasure and Investment Pp 8, ALEKSIC Marko Mediaeval Swords from South-eastern Europe Pp 7, 9, 20-22, 98, 192-194 Article: A Venetian excellence: the Schiavona BECK Carl Waffensammlung Schiavona, Italian/Venetian, 2nd Half Of The 18th Century BINK Jean The Schiavona BLAIR, Claude The James A. De Rothschild Collection At Waddesdon Manor - Arms, Armour and Base-Metalwork Pp 78, 79, 80, BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 3, 10, 16, 52, 84, Plate 176, 219 Schiavona Dagger BOCCIA L.G., COELHO E.T., EDITRICE B. Armi Bianche Italiane Pp 23, Plates 765 – 770, Pp 386-387, 421-422 Boris V Schiavona – the sword of warrior Slovenes Bozzolan Millo The Schiavona Sword, A Balkan Weapon, But Probably Born In Belluno Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima DEMMIN Auguste An Illustrated History of Arms & Armour Pp 379, 388, 432, 564 DUFTY Arthur Richard European Swords and Daggers in the Tower of London pp 23, 34, Plate 44-45 Ehretsmann Martin The Skeleton Guard & the Fishnet Guard FFOULKES C J The Armouries of the Tower of London Vol 2Pp 287, 288 FFOULKES Charles Armour & Weapons Pp 101, 102 FFOULKES Charles European Arms and Armour in the University of Oxford Pp 34, 35 FLIEGEL, Stephen N. ARMS AND ARMOR THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM OF ART Pp 116, 168, 169, 178 FORD-Roger-weapon a visual history of arms and armor Pp 106 FORRER R European Sword Pommels Pp 38 GARCIA Andrew F The Collector' Course on Medieval Arms & Armour Pp 33, 261, 243, 264, 265, 266, 269, 298-299, 309, 343, 331, HELD Robert Art, Arms and Armour An International Anthology Pp 59, 64, 71 HUTTON, Alfred, F.S.A. The Sword and the Centuries Plate 288, LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 1 Fig 232, Pp IX, XXIV, 193 LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 2 302, LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 4 Pp 325 - 328, LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 5 Pp 318, 322, 342, 345, 370 MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Pp 66, 67, Plate 181-183, Pp 384, 432, 440 MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER 66, 384, 432 Overseas Regiment (Schiavoni) NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury Pp 322 OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191 PIREK, Michal Schiavonas: Venetian swords in Bratislava castle's collection PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster Pp 96 PUYPE Jan Piet The Visser Collection Volume 1 Part 3 Pp 130, 132, Robinson Nathan Spotlight: The Schiavona and its Influences SACH, Jan & KRAUS,Valtr Illustriertes Lexikon der Hieb- und Stichwaffen Schiavona 72/75, 116-119/138-142, 253 SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 1 schiavoni 170, 171 SEITZ Heribert – Blankwaffen 2 schiavona 32, 108, 113, 117, 122- 126 SERCER Marija Shiavona references Shiavona Ross Arms SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 25, 152 Schiavona, 269, 271, 34, 415-418 Schiavoni, 271, 34 STONE-G-C-Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour Pp 181, 544, 595, TARASSUK Leonid & BLAIR Claude The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms & Weapons Pp 416 The Perfect Sword Slave The Schiavona Sword-A 17th century Croatian Masterpiece Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki WAGNER Eduard Cut and Thrust Weapons Pp 29, 99, 172, 173 WAGNER, Eduard SWORDS AND DAGGERS Hamlyn Pp 35, 75, WILKINSON Frederick Swords & Daggers Schiavona pp 24; 78, 79 WILKINSON-LATHAM R.J. Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets Pp 8, 39 WILKINSON-LATHAM Robert Swords in Colour Including other Edged Weapons Pp Schiavona, 19, 25, 26. WITHERS Harvey J S The World Encyclopedia of Swords and Sabres Pp 48, 167, 169, 246, 249, 250 WITHERS, Harvey J.S. World Swords 1400 – 1945 Pp 27, 28, 29, I was wondering if anyone either has or can recommend some additional references I might consult. The plan at this stage is to focus mostly on the hilt construction and pommel variations. As with Scottish Basket Hilts, blades are not much use for dating purposes as they were often imported or family blades reused. Cheers Cathey