machete

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2023, 06:57 PM

Very well stated response I.P. and this question of what is or is not ethnographic has been at hand throughout the 25 years I have been here. Naturally, just as there are differences in the notions of collectors and their own interpretation of the character of weapons collected in their select fields.

I am unclear on whether this blade is indeed factory made or not, but I agree it probably is, Alan's sage words are profoundly well placed.
What I would note is that many forms of military weapons were copied from native forms, for a prime example the Gurkha kukri, and numbers of others.
The phenomenon is very reciprocal, military blades or weapons used in native context, and native forms produced in military context.

The term ethnographic is not a 'rubber stamp' or 'checked box' category, but quite subjective typically as we are not dealing with regulations or pattern forms from scheduled catalogs.

The scabbard in the example posted is in my opinion very much privately made, and in the traditional form of leather scabbards familiar from Mexican swords and edged weapons from the 1830s onward. The heavy throat element added on is one feature very recognizable. This is one of the things that takes a weapon of this kind into 'ethnographic' context, much as in the way we often recognize North African swords that are Manding or Mandara, the takouba scabbards of Tuareg and of course those of kaskara to name a few. The leather work offers good insight into the most recent 'ethnographic' context the sword (and blade) were in.

Attached image of the similar type scabbard used in Mexican context as noted (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972, op.cit.)
A Caribbean saber/machete (formerly termed 'Berber' saber) which is now deemed from Caribbean, apparently Cuba, where conscripts were sent to Moroccan Rif in 1920s insurgency. These machetes were clearly not of much use in 'less than tropical' situation so many were simply left there.

These are mostly found with British M1796 light cavalry saber blades (military)
and were reprofiled with these unusual points. These are found in this developed 'form' in the Caribbean, Central America and Gulf Coast Mexico and in slight variation but mostly of this 'form'.

The espada ancha (machete) was used for brushing trails, and as such did not require formal swordsmanship training. However, the military swords (typically the bilbo broadswords) of full length, were used in accord with military sword drill exercises. I believe that the treatise of the Spanish fencing master Carranza did find its way into swordsmanship in New Spain with the military in degree and particularly with the caballeros.
Carranza was governor for a time in Honduras.

* plz note I do not imply the Caribbean machete scabbard is in any way connected to the Mexican one. In fact the vertical 'handle' to hold while withdrawing blade has some resemblance to examples of Ethiopian origin ( "African Arms & Armor" Spring) no connection stated.

fernando · 13th January 2023, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....Very well stated response I.P. and this question of what is or is not ethnographic has been at hand throughout the 25 years I have been here. Naturally, just as there are differences in the notions of collectors and their own interpretation of the character of weapons collected in their select fields...

...The term ethnographic is not a 'rubber stamp' or 'checked box' category, but quite subjective typically as we are not dealing with regulations or pattern forms from scheduled catalogs...

...This is one of the things that takes a weapon of this kind into 'ethnographic' context, much as in the way we often recognize North African swords that are Manding or Mandara, the takouba scabbards of Tuareg and of course those of kaskara to name a few. The leather work offers good insight into the most recent 'ethnographic' context the sword (and blade) were in...

Good notes Jim. And if we circumvent the concept of Anthropology as an academic subject of study, we may as well find the 'practical' definition of ethnographic implements, arms for the case, present in our forum Collector's Guide

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2023, 07:27 PM

Thank you Fernando.
As with any debate, these aspects described can be evaluated, disputed and qualified or disqualified ad nauseum. Anthropology, as defined, is generally either cultural, archaeological or linguistic.

The unique situation of elements used in the making of culturally oriented weapons which derive from sources outside that culture in my opinion become by association inherently a part of that culture as ethnographic, though in a notably qualified condition.

In the 'Collectors Guide' it is noted that 'militaria' cannot be included in the ethnographic criteria as it is produced typically outside the culture being examined. By this definition, the multitude of weapons we have discussed here for a quarter of a century which have comprised elements which derive from militarily oriented (mass produced outside the culture) are no longer recognized as 'ethnographic'.

Obviously just to begin, kaskaras with European blades; flyssas, which invariably have European blades of military connection; s'boula in Morocco, using French bayonet blades to name a few would be disqualified by this arbitrary definition.

In an effort to be comprehensive, what I believe was intended in this guide, was the exclusion of 'modern militaria' post 1900, particularly WWI & WWII items.

As with law, there are interpretations, and in addition there must be a degree of rationalization applied into criteria as the numbers of cases will of course have numerous exceptions. Practicality is a good guideline, but not always entirely applicable.

Fortunately these kinds of examples and situations are pretty much few and far between involving 'modern' elements, so a degree of latitude with noted limitation and exception seems reasonable.

fernando · 13th January 2023, 08:48 PM

Maybe what we need here is to separate the waters, Jim; standardized military models (SIC) is one thing and ethnic handmade weapons incorporating an element assumed to improve their efficacy is another. Or even in some cases the blade is assembled to simbolize influence of outside cultures ... but in an ethnic manner, for internal interpretation.
This does not take place in industrial production lines. A nimcha, for one, is an ethnographic implement; if it goes now and then with an early European blade, is not such a crime to let it enter the door to the Ethnographic universe. Or, in another perspective, is not militaria stuff.
I look at my 'Mbele a Lulendo' sword.

.

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2023, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe what we need here is to separate the waters, Jim; standardized military models (SIC) is one thing and ethnic handmade weapons incorporating an element assumed to improve their efficacy is another. Or even in some cases the blade is assembled to simbolize influence of outside cultures ... but in an ethnic manner, for internal interpretation.
This does not take place in industrial production lines. A nimcha, for one, is an ethnographic implement; if it goes now and then with an early European blade, is not such a crime to let it enter the door to the Ethnographic universe. Or, in another perspective, is not militaria stuff.
I look at my 'Mbele a Lulendo' sword.

.

Well put Fernando, and this dilemma could not be better explained, thank you.

P.S. That Portuguese sword from the Congo is a outstanding example!

Edster · 13th January 2023, 10:49 PM

The celebrated "anthropologist" Albert Einstein is said to have said"

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not".

Ed

David · 16th January 2023, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

The celebrated "anthropologist" Albert Einstein is said to have said"

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not".

Ed

In “The Yale Literary Magazine” of February 1882, which was written and edited by students, Benjamin Brewster, who was a member of the class of 1882, wrote about an argument he had engaged in with a philosophical friend about theory versus practice. His companion accused him of committing a vulgar error.
His response:
"I heard no more, for I was lost in self-reproach that I had been the victim of “vulgar error.” But afterwards, a kind of haunting doubt came over me. What does his lucid explanation amount to but this, that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, while in practice there is?"

Einstein would have been 3 years old at the time.

12th January 2023, 06:57 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very well stated response I.P. and this question of what is or is not ethnographic has been at hand throughout the 25 years I have been here. Naturally, just as there are differences in the notions of collectors and their own interpretation of the character of weapons collected in their select fields. I am unclear on whether this blade is indeed factory made or not, but I agree it probably is, Alan's sage words are profoundly well placed. What I would note is that many forms of military weapons were copied from native forms, for a prime example the Gurkha kukri, and numbers of others. The phenomenon is very reciprocal, military blades or weapons used in native context, and native forms produced in military context. The term ethnographic is not a 'rubber stamp' or 'checked box' category, but quite subjective typically as we are not dealing with regulations or pattern forms from scheduled catalogs. The scabbard in the example posted is in my opinion very much privately made, and in the traditional form of leather scabbards familiar from Mexican swords and edged weapons from the 1830s onward. The heavy throat element added on is one feature very recognizable. This is one of the things that takes a weapon of this kind into 'ethnographic' context, much as in the way we often recognize North African swords that are Manding or Mandara, the takouba scabbards of Tuareg and of course those of kaskara to name a few. The leather work offers good insight into the most recent 'ethnographic' context the sword (and blade) were in. Attached image of the similar type scabbard used in Mexican context as noted (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972, op.cit.) A Caribbean saber/machete (formerly termed 'Berber' saber) which is now deemed from Caribbean, apparently Cuba, where conscripts were sent to Moroccan Rif in 1920s insurgency. These machetes were clearly not of much use in 'less than tropical' situation so many were simply left there. These are mostly found with British M1796 light cavalry saber blades (military) and were reprofiled with these unusual points. These are found in this developed 'form' in the Caribbean, Central America and Gulf Coast Mexico and in slight variation but mostly of this 'form'. The espada ancha (machete) was used for brushing trails, and as such did not require formal swordsmanship training. However, the military swords (typically the bilbo broadswords) of full length, were used in accord with military sword drill exercises. I believe that the treatise of the Spanish fencing master Carranza did find its way into swordsmanship in New Spain with the military in degree and particularly with the caballeros. Carranza was governor for a time in Honduras. * plz note I do not imply the Caribbean machete scabbard is in any way connected to the Mexican one. In fact the vertical 'handle' to hold while withdrawing blade has some resemblance to examples of Ethiopian origin ( "African Arms & Armor" Spring) no connection stated. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th January 2023 at 05:44 AM.

13th January 2023, 07:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Fernando. As with any debate, these aspects described can be evaluated, disputed and qualified or disqualified ad nauseum. Anthropology, as defined, is generally either cultural, archaeological or linguistic. The unique situation of elements used in the making of culturally oriented weapons which derive from sources outside that culture in my opinion become by association inherently a part of that culture as ethnographic, though in a notably qualified condition. In the 'Collectors Guide' it is noted that 'militaria' cannot be included in the ethnographic criteria as it is produced typically outside the culture being examined. By this definition, the multitude of weapons we have discussed here for a quarter of a century which have comprised elements which derive from militarily oriented (mass produced outside the culture) are no longer recognized as 'ethnographic'. Obviously just to begin, kaskaras with European blades; flyssas, which invariably have European blades of military connection; s'boula in Morocco, using French bayonet blades to name a few would be disqualified by this arbitrary definition. In an effort to be comprehensive, what I believe was intended in this guide, was the exclusion of 'modern militaria' post 1900, particularly WWI & WWII items. As with law, there are interpretations, and in addition there must be a degree of rationalization applied into criteria as the numbers of cases will of course have numerous exceptions. Practicality is a good guideline, but not always entirely applicable. Fortunately these kinds of examples and situations are pretty much few and far between involving 'modern' elements, so a degree of latitude with noted limitation and exception seems reasonable. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th January 2023 at 07:45 PM.

13th January 2023, 08:48 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Personal thought ... Maybe what we need here is to separate the waters, Jim; standardized military models (SIC) is one thing and ethnic handmade weapons incorporating an element assumed to improve their efficacy is another. Or even in some cases the blade is assembled to simbolize influence of outside cultures ... but in an ethnic manner, for internal interpretation. This does not take place in industrial production lines. A nimcha, for one, is an ethnographic implement; if it goes now and then with an early European blade, is not such a crime to let it enter the door to the Ethnographic universe. Or, in another perspective, is not militaria stuff. I look at my 'Mbele a Lulendo' sword. . Attached Images

13th January 2023, 10:49 PM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	The celebrated "anthropologist" Albert Einstein is said to have said" "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not". Ed Last edited by Edster; 13th January 2023 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Correction: Replaced Berra with Einstein.