Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

[Teisani]

21 - Hungarian sabre - Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum.

Interestingly, compared to most other sabres with long quillons, this one has a European blade. Can't find any other info on it.

[Teisani]

22 - Sabre of Nikola VII Zrinski (Hungarian: Zrínyi Miklós; 1620–1664), Ban of Croatia from 1647 until 1664. Bítov collection.

[Teisani]

I need some help. I am looking for a depiction on a Hungarian sabre with classic boot-hilt, in a medieval/renaissance manuscript, German I think, about firearms? fireworks?... I really don't remember. I remember seeing it many years ago online...but cannot find it anymore. Does this ring any bells to anyone?

[Interested Party]

I recently read Denis Toichkin's Sabers of Hetman Ivan Mazepa article from which this photo was taken of what he concludes to be a composite saber. Where does this particular hilt fit into the discussion? It seems to be classified as a Hussar Karabela hilt that Toichkin states was popular in the late 17th century with Cossack nobles. To me the angle of the hilt and thumb ring seem reminiscent of Central and Northern European Influence. Were these straighter hilted Karabelas common?

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

To me the angle of the hilt and thumb ring seem reminiscent of Central and Northern European Influence. Were these straighter hilted Karabelas common?

Unfortunately, this is a type of sabre that I know very little about... but to my eyes it combines traits found in some Tatar? sabres and other East European sabres like the the karabela (and by extension some Ottoman sabres?).

East European and Ottoman traits:
1 the scabbard fittings are reminiscent of some on various sabres of Ottoman origin. See here...of course not identical but you see the resemblance. And definitely not tatar-like fittings. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ren_-_8917.tif

2 the cross guard is narrow and again, reminescent of Ottoman and East European sabres of the late 1600s - early 1700. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...en_-_51965.tif Note: the sabre in this picture is suspected of being one of Constantin Brancoveanu, Wallachian voivode based on the blade inscription

3 the thumb ring is where it departs Ottoman character and gains a Polish?? Maybe Ukrainian?? character.

Tatar traits:
4 the ray skin covering the handle.
5 the narrow, uniform curved, fuller-less, yelman-less blade.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/w/in...en_-_17479.tif
Although the Poles also had something inspired by this https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabla_ormiańska

But the szabla ormianska is itself inspired by Tatar sabres.

In short, to me it looks like a heavily Tatar sabre inspired design with Polish features added...but again these are sabres of which I know very little about. One thing I will say is that I don't think calling it a karabela is very helpfull. Karabelas have very distinctive hilts, most of them don't even have a thumb ring...so what's the point of calling it a karabela.

[Interested Party]

The complete sword possibly being a 19th century composite I was mainly asking about the hilt. Which was identified as being late 17th century Ukranian. The straightness of the handle seemed odd to me as eastern sabers tented to have hilts with curves or angles. The quillons to me are Tartar/ central Asian influenced. Nice pick up on the Ray skin Teisani.

[awdaniec666]

Early Polish sabers tend to have a straight design in the hilt. They become more curved later on under the influence of Hungarian origin. Below one example. Also I would not classify the mentioned saber as a Karabela in todays terminology, since it lacks the eagle-head shape. Back in the days (17th century) Karabela seemed to describe every decorated saber but this is theory with very little evidence.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Teisani

21 - Hungarian sabre - Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum.

Interestingly, compared to most other sabres with long quillons, this one has a European blade. Can't find any other info on it.

This specimen looks exactly like the ones gifted by Bathory to the Saxon court. They can be still found in the Rüstkammer Dresden - possibly a museal loan?

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

This specimen looks exactly like the ones gifted by Bathory to the Saxon court. They can be still found in the Rüstkammer Dresden - possibly a museal loan?

You mean Y0054 ( https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/284576 )? No, they're different sabers. But you're right they are similar. Didn't have time to post it together with the others unfortunately.

[Teisani]

One minor note. I thought Illésházy Ferenc's scabbard looked familiar...by chance, looking on SKD-online I found sabre Y0224 with a similar scabbard. OK, it's not identical, but pretty close. They're even both probably from the 1650-1660! Check the description.

No way do I think they're the same sabre... but same scabbard maker? Maybe.

https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/289059

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by Teisani

You mean Y0054 ( https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/284576 )? No, they're different sabers. But you're right they are similar. Didn't have time to post it together with the others unfortunately.

Different sabers of course, but the gift was a batch of these. I don´t think any of them was identical to another. But this question could be solved with a short email to the museum if somebody would be seriously interested.

P.S.: You´ve asked me about the origin of the stone sculputures with the Karabela(-ish) hilt within the PDF I shared. Did not forget this! It´s from an Epitaph by Paul Volckmer in the Hl. Sebald Church in Nürnberg from 1499.

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

...but the gift was a batch of these.

P.S.: ... It´s from an Epitaph by Paul Volckamer in the Hl. Sebald Church in Nürnberg from 1499.

A batch? This is interesting. Looking at their website, I didn't find any other sabres looking exactly like this one.

P.S.: Thank you, and I found a nice photo of it here. My assumption is that it's a messer handle ( https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...-_DSC05731.JPG and https://mobile.twitter.com/Aetas_Mem...73100680622080 ), although it is highly curved... and the artist knew to put upper languettes on the cross-guard. Interestingly, the wearer has a turban on his head... so he's a turk. So the artist, to my eyes, is depicting an Ottoman sabre, but blending messer handle traits.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...-_DSC01960.jpg
https://wgue.smugmug.com/Orte/Franke...bald/i-W6kkxcV

[Teisani]

And now for something completely different...
1 - For our viewing pleasure... antique sabres with Wojciech Zabłocki. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJrm7JP1DJA

2 - An interview with the man himself (not really relevant to our goal, but seems a shame not to mention) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QubvyHGbiIA

[Teisani]

23 - False Dmitry I - Tsar of Russia (1605-1606)
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...amozwaniec.jpg