Sudanese(?) shamshir anomaly

Tim Simmons · 7th January 2023, 08:08 AM

The actual grip is not unusual. This style of dress sword was quite popular with British high ranking officers.

A.alnakkas · 7th January 2023, 09:38 AM

Existence of curved Sudanese swords is documented, even if not as frequent as straight blades. Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 06:18 PM

Thank you guys for responding, indeed British colonial officers had a genuine affinity for 'exotica' and there was a notable cottage industry in outfitting which had a strong center in British controlled Aden in Arabia as well as of course in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.
This example however has the distinct ring of a weapon intended for status or ceremonial wear for a Sudanese notable, probably of the Condominium period.

It is true that the British favored sabers with the bulbous pommel Ottoman hilt, which was exemplified by the well know 'mameluke' style officers saber. This example with this type of brass hilt in this shape is not at all in the quality and style of those hilts, and while sabers are indeed known in the Sudan this is unusual in the character of the blade.

In discussions of those years ago, it was suggested that the flaws in the forging of the 'Istanbul bayez' damascus seems to have been possibly produced by a Sudanese maker who had 'been making kaskara blades' but perhaps with Ottoman direction.

The reticulation in the hilt shows remains of the medium which apparently held some type of decorative fixtures in the spaces since removed. The character of the fashioned brass is atypical for this type of hilt, and recalls certain hilts produced in India on pata for example in 19th c. I would imagine there is a wood basis underneath.

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 07:42 PM

In interesting research I am following on this saber, I had recalled a photo of a mounted Sudanese official who had a kaskara saddle mounted in the early European manner of a 'tuck' (long straight sword situated under riders left leg). He was also wearing a side mounted sword, which I misremembered as a saber.

In fact this photo appears to be a late 19th c. image of the notorious Zebeyr Pasha, a well known slave trader, probably in Cairo c. 1887-1899. While he was from Sudan, he began his nefarious trade activity c.1856, controlling much of Chad and Congo regions bordering west Sudan. His headquarters were in Deim Zubeir in Bahr el Ghazal in that Sudanese area.

He was prominent in the period known as the TURKIYA (1821-1884) when Ottoman Egypt conquered the Funj kingdom of Sudan in 1821.

Without going into long and complex detail, basically Zebeyr Pasha (Al Zubayr Rahma Mansur, 1830-1913) was notably influenced by Ottomans via Egypt and the Khedive.

The photo shows Zubeyr Pasha with the sword at his side being apparently an Arab/Ottoman pallasche (straight blade) with the characteristic bulbous pommel hilt, worn apparently in the manner of the shorter kaskara often seen from Sudan with shoulder strap.
Attached photo of Beja warrior mounted and wearing kaskara in this manner.

In 1877 when British General Charles Gordon came to suppress slavery in these regions, he actually asked for governorship of newly conquered Darfur from the Khedive of Egypt but was denied. While not allowed to go to Sudan either he was allowed to go to Constantinople at outbreak of Russo-Turkish war.

I would note here that the 'pallashe' of Arab form he is wearing in the photo is much like examples like this I have seen with clear connection to Egypt in late 19th c. In 1887, Zubeyr returned to Cairo, where he remained until returning to Sudan in 1899.

Without enough detail as yet to speculate on my example (OP) I would suggest that perhaps this may be the context where more answers may be found. Perhaps the profound influence of the Ottomans in Egypt were partly at hand, and the Turkish influences possibly experienced in Constantinople might have prompted such a sword form for figures under his control.

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 08:29 PM

In previous post I had mentioned the 'straight saber' (pallasche) of Arab/Ottoman form as known in Anglo-Egyptian condominium Egypt.
Here is a photo of one from some years ago I saw. It seems remarkably like the one worn by Zebyr Pasha on horseback.

Next is an Indian pata I have had for over 40 years which has interesting history of its own from my acquisition of it (saving that for memoirs

Here is the 'style' of brass work I mentioned with reference to the hilt of my saber (OP). Of further and compelling interest is the blade, which appears to be European with astral motif and remarkably like those found of course in kaskara.
The possibilities of this unusual combination are intriguing, and well illustrate the colonial confluences of the last quarter of 19th c. Great Britain.

Battara · 8th January 2023, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!

I was wondering the same thing.........

7th January 2023, 06:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you guys for responding, indeed British colonial officers had a genuine affinity for 'exotica' and there was a notable cottage industry in outfitting which had a strong center in British controlled Aden in Arabia as well as of course in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. This example however has the distinct ring of a weapon intended for status or ceremonial wear for a Sudanese notable, probably of the Condominium period. It is true that the British favored sabers with the bulbous pommel Ottoman hilt, which was exemplified by the well know 'mameluke' style officers saber. This example with this type of brass hilt in this shape is not at all in the quality and style of those hilts, and while sabers are indeed known in the Sudan this is unusual in the character of the blade. In discussions of those years ago, it was suggested that the flaws in the forging of the 'Istanbul bayez' damascus seems to have been possibly produced by a Sudanese maker who had 'been making kaskara blades' but perhaps with Ottoman direction. The reticulation in the hilt shows remains of the medium which apparently held some type of decorative fixtures in the spaces since removed. The character of the fashioned brass is atypical for this type of hilt, and recalls certain hilts produced in India on pata for example in 19th c. I would imagine there is a wood basis underneath. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th January 2023 at 07:09 PM.

7th January 2023, 07:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	In interesting research I am following on this saber, I had recalled a photo of a mounted Sudanese official who had a kaskara saddle mounted in the early European manner of a 'tuck' (long straight sword situated under riders left leg). He was also wearing a side mounted sword, which I misremembered as a saber. In fact this photo appears to be a late 19th c. image of the notorious Zebeyr Pasha, a well known slave trader, probably in Cairo c. 1887-1899. While he was from Sudan, he began his nefarious trade activity c.1856, controlling much of Chad and Congo regions bordering west Sudan. His headquarters were in Deim Zubeir in Bahr el Ghazal in that Sudanese area. He was prominent in the period known as the TURKIYA (1821-1884) when Ottoman Egypt conquered the Funj kingdom of Sudan in 1821. Without going into long and complex detail, basically Zebeyr Pasha (Al Zubayr Rahma Mansur, 1830-1913) was notably influenced by Ottomans via Egypt and the Khedive. The photo shows Zubeyr Pasha with the sword at his side being apparently an Arab/Ottoman pallasche (straight blade) with the characteristic bulbous pommel hilt, worn apparently in the manner of the shorter kaskara often seen from Sudan with shoulder strap. Attached photo of Beja warrior mounted and wearing kaskara in this manner. In 1877 when British General Charles Gordon came to suppress slavery in these regions, he actually asked for governorship of newly conquered Darfur from the Khedive of Egypt but was denied. While not allowed to go to Sudan either he was allowed to go to Constantinople at outbreak of Russo-Turkish war. I would note here that the 'pallashe' of Arab form he is wearing in the photo is much like examples like this I have seen with clear connection to Egypt in late 19th c. In 1887, Zubeyr returned to Cairo, where he remained until returning to Sudan in 1899. Without enough detail as yet to speculate on my example (OP) I would suggest that perhaps this may be the context where more answers may be found. Perhaps the profound influence of the Ottomans in Egypt were partly at hand, and the Turkish influences possibly experienced in Constantinople might have prompted such a sword form for figures under his control. Attached Images

7th January 2023, 08:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	addendum to prev post In previous post I had mentioned the 'straight saber' (pallasche) of Arab/Ottoman form as known in Anglo-Egyptian condominium Egypt. Here is a photo of one from some years ago I saw. It seems remarkably like the one worn by Zebyr Pasha on horseback. Next is an Indian pata I have had for over 40 years which has interesting history of its own from my acquisition of it (saving that for memoirs Here is the 'style' of brass work I mentioned with reference to the hilt of my saber (OP). Of further and compelling interest is the blade, which appears to be European with astral motif and remarkably like those found of course in kaskara. The possibilities of this unusual combination are intriguing, and well illustrate the colonial confluences of the last quarter of 19th c. Great Britain. Attached Images

7th January 2023, 08:08 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	The actual grip is not unusual. This style of dress sword was quite popular with British high ranking officers.

7th January 2023, 09:38 AM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Existence of curved Sudanese swords is documented, even if not as frequent as straight blades. Looks like an Ottoman/Egyptian sword that was redressed in Sudanese style without changing the handle's overall shape. I wonder what's under the brass sheet!