Coyness in posting keris pics

[SidJ]

Thanks for your responses thus far. I can see why sharing pics may serve to enrich dishonest people. And I see also how in Java etc showing a keris can reveal a lot to strangers. But arent the reasons for this as follows:
1. Those keris are of deep personal significance with them being made to suit the owner or ancestral objects.
2. People only had one keris generally and did not seek to acquire collections as we know

Now we have a context where keris are traded internationally as commodities on the online market. Collectors buy large numbers of these based on various criteria. The keris is not made for them and is not an ancestral object. It is an object of art totally removed from the context Alan described I would think. A cherished keris today can on a whim be sold off the next. There is not remotely the connection between keris and custodian as occurs in the home nations. On this basis then this practice of not sharing keris images might be seen as merely giving a cursory whimsical, respectful and well meaning superficial nod to the culture but nothing more. A harsher view might be that this is a bit of convenient cultural appropriation. And might it be said that the collector who does post images recognises that they are not operating in the home nation cultural context at all and their appreciation is of a different but no less disrespectful flavour. Like a western appreciation of fine art in its purest sense? I again emphasise I mean no disrespect to anyone. I am only trying to find my own way through this ethical morass. I know there is no right or wrong way. But is there a better way to act?

[Anthony G.]

This is what I have experienced personally where your keris photo has been used by scammers who use it to scam unaware victims who thinks the keris belongs to the scammers.

After paying for it, the scammers just disappear.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Sid, most collectors do not have problems with showing their acquisitions to whomever may wish to look.

That is exactly what I said in post #2:-

"The pure collectors are usually more than happy to display their possessions, whereas the people who are students of the keris and who have learnt that the etiquette in most, if not all keris bearing cultures is to keep those keris that they regard as personal keris hidden from the eyes of strangers."

The people who do not want to display their keris are those who are culturally conscious. Very often they are people who have had some contact with the culture, and/or society of the places where keris are viewed as sacred objects, iconic objects, religious objects. In my own case, I have many years of contact with members of Javanese & Balinese society, I have been instructed at length in the correct way to behave over many years by people whom I respect and who in turn respect me. I would not ever betray the trust that my friends and teachers have placed in me.

But an ordinary collector, especially a collector in a society that is outside the core society of origin of the keris does not bear the obligations that I, and some other people bear. A pure collector rarely knows very much about what he collects, many collectors of keris feel very satisfied with their level of knowledge if they can identify a Surakarta keris as distinct from a Jogja keris.

I can see no real reason why a collector who only focuses on names and physical attributes of keris should hide his keris from other people.

Essentially Sid, whether to show or not to show is a personal decision once we move outside the society of origin, if one is comfortable with letting everybody in the entire world seeing what they lock into their double dial Chubb safe in the security room, then by all means go ahead and show. Those who are not comfortable with letting anybody except close friends look at what they have, well then, of course they will act a trifle more conservatively.

Personal decision Sid:- do it or don't do it, its up to you.

[milandro]

I have come across this a couple of times outside of this forum ( on the forum I have also read , can't remember were exactly or by whom, that some members weren't inclined to show their own " private" kris' images and I certainly respect that.)

However I came across a couple of times people selling their kris and showing it only sheathed, now that, frankly, I don't understand.

I tried to say to them that logic, would demand that if I were to purchase, especially at a distance, a kris, I would need to look at the blade.

The answer was that they were told that it was bad luck to show a kris' blade.

[David]

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

[A. G. Maisey]

You seem to be in a different, but somewhat similar position to my own David.

Sometimes I would very much like to show a photo of something in order to provide clarification, but I do not do this simply because I know it is something that would be frowned upon by a number of people and for those people it would mark me as a pretender.

But I do show keris from my personal collection when I have decided to move that keris to a new owner. When this happens I move the keris to items identified for sale, rather than items identified for collection.

There is another reason that some people do not like showing collection items in a place where strangers can see those things, and this applies not only to collectors of keris.

It is the same reason that they do not show items of jewellery or other valuables, the same reason why they maintain a security room, the same reason why they instal a safe, the same reason why they make sure that their home address is removed from public records.

[David]

One other reason some folks avoid posting their keris, especially multiple detailed images, is to keep unscrupulous characters from stealing those photos and attempting to sell keris they do not possess to unwary collectors. This is a common scam.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

Hi David, my good friend. Could you be so kind to break out the comments in paragraphs so that making reading easily. Thanks

[Green]

I've been to quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia over the years - in Bali, Jakarta, Jogjakarta, Medan, Bone Sulawesi among others. This practically covers all keris centres in Indonesia. This means that basically there are no taboos regarding displaying personal pusakas. The preference to show or not to show your kerises are just that. Personal preference (for whatever reasons).

Also, in Malaysia, and Southern Thailand (another major keris culture region) they hold keris competition almost annually where collectors and enthusiasts bring their best keris (pusakas and antiques keris) to participate and can be seen by all.Again no taboos about displaying keris in this region as well.

In short, it is just personal choice.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by David

Sid, this has been a internal dilemma for me since i began collecting keris. For a long time i followed the path that Alan has taken and never published any of my collection. But as i have gotten older, it seems to me personally that when in discussion about keris with other ardent collectors it is sometimes useful to post one of my collection as an example if it helps to bring further knowledge to that discussion. That said, there are still many keris in my collection that i have never shown publicly and probably never will. Despite being outside of the culture i still have formed my own personal and private connections with certain keris in my collection and for what ever reason consider those particular blades "not for public viewing". If someone whats to see that as cultural appropriation, well, that's their problem, not mine. Of course, then there are a few "personal" pieces in my collection which, after some internal struggle, i have decided to publish. There are probably a few different reasons for that, depending on the blade, but usually it is because it is something that i just haven't seen much of out there and i feel it would benefit the community as a whole to be able to see it. Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors. But again, there are still certain blades i have no intention on ever posting publicly.
I participate, as you know, in numerous collector forums, so i do see a lot of keris on line. I do hope that i never post images of any of my keris in a "showy" manner. While i am, of course, happy to view the collections of others in these forums, i do tend to find the show and tell atmosphere just a bit annoying sometimes. It is all too often people simply showing off their latest acquisition with a large slice of pride and sometimes that can seem a bit disrespectful to both culture and the keris itself. The other thing that irks me in these other forums (most people know better here) is when posting a keris leads to all kinds of strangers inquiring about purchasing it. This is another reason i am always hesitant to post anything. To me it seems like the epitome of rudeness to ask about purchasing someones prized keris. It's the kind of thing one expects from the stereotype of the ignorant American tourist who is visiting a foreign culture an thinks they can just buy everything they see that meets their fancy. It's just a matter of extremely poor taste IMHO. When someone does decide to post their keris we should all consider ourself fortunate they are sharing what might be a very personal object for them.

David I agree with you on the point of certain folk showing off their stuff on other forums. Its the attempt at one upmanship to rapidly build up some degree of credibility and rise up the ranks in these forums especially in the case of folk aspiring to gain commercially by emulating successful dealers. The prices they charge then funnily are also ridicilously steep. Its a ploy to build a profile and image to market oneself and ones products to maximise gain.

[A. G. Maisey]

Keris, tombak and other items of tosan aji are regarded as having protective qualities.

When they are on display in a traditional Javanese home they are usually put in a strategic position that the people living in that home believe will protect the home & themselves from evil.

Blawongs were & are wall decorations, sometimes intended just as a decoration, like a painting or framed picture, sometimes because the people living in the house regard the blawong& its motif as protective. This is very much the case in rural Central Jawa.

Somewhere along the way people started to combine the protective qualities of the blawong with the protective qualities of the keris. Blawongs were not originally intended to display keris.

As for the ploncon/jagrak, Sid is dead right when he says that display of keris dress is totally different to display of the keris itself. There can be a number of reasons why easily reachable keris could be considered a good idea.

For instance, let's say you are a Javanese gentleman dressed in full traditional attire, you're on your way to a wedding, or a party or some other event, you call in to have a yarn with your mate along the way.

It is not possible to sit comfortably in a normal lounge chair with a wangkingan stuck in the back of your setagen, so you remove it, then what do you do with it?

If your mate has a ploncon in his front room, you put the keris into that, and when you're leaving you turn it into a wangkingan again.

Then we have dealers:- they need some way to display what they are selling. Keris dress is fragile, a ploncon helps to prevent damage.

What I've written relates to Javanese keris, but what about the little statues that are used to hold Balinese keris?

These were originally placed on the front verandah next to the front door, a visitor placed his keris into the holder when entered the house or sat.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by David

Then i have posted a keris here and there because there is an aspect about it that i really want to know more about and the most obvious way to gather that knowledge is by showing the blade to a group of fellow collectors.

I completely agreed with you David, the reason why I've posted keris in this forum is because I've found this forum like some sort of sanctuary where members can give feedbacks/comments unbiased and without ulterior motive which I hope can increase my knowledge.

[SidJ]

I had a thought on this. Could not wanting to share or show keris be an Islamic precept or cultural practice? Pre Islam might keris have been proudly shown? Look at the old stone sculptures. No shame there in displaying. Another point is that the keris had to fit into the new islamic paradigm. Keeping it hidden might have been one way of navigating this? In Hinduism and other Islamic societies weapons are shown off proudly. Keris had to deal with particular issues that meant keeping them under the radar might have been best perhaps? Wjat is the case in Bali?

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

I have come across this a couple of times outside of this forum ( on the forum I have also read , can't remember were exactly or by whom, that some members weren't inclined to show their own " private" kris' images and I certainly respect that.)

However I came across a couple of times people selling their kris and showing it only sheathed, now that, frankly, I don't understand.

I tried to say to them that logic, would demand that if I were to purchase, especially at a distance, a kris, I would need to look at the blade.

The answer was that they were told that it was bad luck to show a kris' blade.

I found it rather strange, how can we as a buyer buy a keris without looking at the bilah condition first. No view, equals to no pay.