Opinion on an unusual dagger with wootz blade

mahratt · 15th December 2022, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Hello,

this three blade folding mechanism reminds me of indian Katars, where we can see this sometimes, too.
So I would guess northern India is also a possibility. In my opinion, the artistical style doesn't speak against that, too. What do you think?

Regards
Robin

Great idea!
I completely forgot about those "drop-downs" kathars.
Good version! But I'm confused by the high quality of wootz:
1) I can't remember any examples "drop-down" katars from high quality wootz
2) usually such a voots is considered Persian, unless of course I'm mistaken...

Best Wishes,
Dmitry

ariel · 15th December 2022, 04:39 PM

Persian swordsmiths were invited by the Moguls to serve at their court. It started at the end of 16th century and within the next 50-100 years Moghul swordsmiths fully adopted Persian techniques. Thus, the presence of sophisticated wootz pattern does not exclude North Indian origin.

mahratt · 15th December 2022, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Persian swordsmiths were invited by the Moguls to serve at their court. It started at the end of 16th century and within the next 50-100 years Moghul swordsmiths fully adopted Persian techniques. Thus, the presence of sophisticated wootz pattern does not exclude North Indian origin.

Thanks for the clarification

ariel · 15th December 2022, 10:53 PM

You are welcome.

gp · 16th December 2022, 12:02 AM

might be even longer present in the Indian hemispheres ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

ariel · 16th December 2022, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

might be even longer present in the Indian hemispheres ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

Yes, Indians did produce wootz very early in history, but their wootz pattern was limited to the " salt-and-pepper" variety.
Complex wootz patterns ( Kara Khorasan, Kara Taban) were invented and mass produced in Persia alone till ~17th century when Persian bladesmiths relocated to the Mughal courts and instructed their Indian colleagues how to produce sophisticated patterns.

mariusgmioc · 16th December 2022, 11:17 AM

Are you very sure it is wootz and not pattern welded?

I am asking because I have seen pattern welded blades with very similar pattern to the one of this dagger.

Anyhow, whether pattern welded or wootz, I would go for India as origin.

15th December 2022, 04:39 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Persian swordsmiths were invited by the Moguls to serve at their court. It started at the end of 16th century and within the next 50-100 years Moghul swordsmiths fully adopted Persian techniques. Thus, the presence of sophisticated wootz pattern does not exclude North Indian origin.

15th December 2022, 10:53 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are welcome.

16th December 2022, 12:02 AM	#5
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 841	might be even longer present in the Indian hemispheres ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

16th December 2022, 11:17 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Are you very sure it is wootz and not pattern welded? I am asking because I have seen pattern welded blades with very similar pattern to the one of this dagger. Anyhow, whether pattern welded or wootz, I would go for India as origin.