Unknown French Sword

corrado26 · 7th December 2022, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Authentic, reconstructed or adapted for other uses, several swords are known in museums, such as the one in the old collections of the Château de Malmaison which was worn by the actor François-Joseph Talma (1763-1826). Work restored in 2007 by the Olivier Morel workshop"

This is a very interesting hint! Thank you.

kronckew · 7th December 2022, 06:37 PM

The Ecole de Mars sword is one of the ugliest swords I've ever seen. It's better off without the silly iron guard pieces tacked on. Bet they snap off easily The scabbard makes it even worse - it must weigh a ton. Would hate being a student forced to carry one.The OP's one above looks almost useable. Must have been modified to look better.

Dmitry · 7th December 2022, 08:30 PM

CORRADO26, if you rely on your experience and intuition (based on seeing your input here over time, I am certain you are savvy collector), does the sword look "period"? The scabbard is not interesting, but if the sword is authentic, it's a good historical find.
Obviously you are aware that this type of hilt has been many times duplicated, and used for theatrical and societal purposes.
For instance, I've attached a scan of a page from the early 20th c. Henderson-Ames Company catalogue of masonic implements, namely for the IOOF (International Order of Odd Fellows). While not an exact sibling of the Ecole De Mars sword, it's nevertheless a blood relative.

corrado26 · 8th December 2022, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

does the sword look "period"?
.

Yes, after my opinion the sword is certainly made during the revolution, and as I wrote in my first post there are absolutely no signs that there have been iron guards before which had been tacked off later. But as I learnt by the answers here I now think it has been made outside the needs of the Ecole de Mars for an until now unknown purpose.

Dmitry · 30th March 2023, 06:17 PM

On my recent visit to Madrid, I spied several very similar swords in a painting at the Prado.
It's the DEATH OF VIRIATUS by Jose de Madrazo, p.1807, a monumental-scale painting in the very popular then neoclassical style, influenced by the likes of David, Gros, Roques, etc.
The iconography is typical of the Greco-Roman hero worship pieces, and includes the implements of war, of which these swords are integral.
i thought that colleague Corrado26 may find this interesting. Even the scabbards are well-copied from the props the artists had available to him.

corrado26 · 31st March 2023, 11:35 AM

Many thanks for showing me this painting with the swords. It is really interesting and demonstrates for which purpose these swords perhaps have been made and have been in use.

Gavin Nugent · 31st March 2023, 11:48 AM

I'll be honest, I've no real confirmation about what this is or was or maybe, but under a personal feel lens I see this as having quite decent age to it.

What I struggle with is the scabbard fittings and the peening of the tang, I've come to expect better of the French makers of the day and feel this may be something else completely.

I looked through every page of Christian Aries work on the subject of swords and only a single entry was noted for the anything similar, a type already presented.

What I didn't know which was interesting, is the extra quillons seen on the Ecole de Mars sword was actually based on the Moroccan Nimcha/Saif... and that they made a model with the same hilt too... one I have never seen in the market...

An interesting thing to ponder over.

Gavin

7th December 2022, 06:37 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The Ecole de Mars sword is one of the ugliest swords I've ever seen. It's better off without the silly iron guard pieces tacked on. Bet they snap off easily The scabbard makes it even worse - it must weigh a ton. Would hate being a student forced to carry one.The OP's one above looks almost useable. Must have been modified to look better. Attached Images

7th December 2022, 08:30 PM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	CORRADO26, if you rely on your experience and intuition (based on seeing your input here over time, I am certain you are savvy collector), does the sword look "period"? The scabbard is not interesting, but if the sword is authentic, it's a good historical find. Obviously you are aware that this type of hilt has been many times duplicated, and used for theatrical and societal purposes. For instance, I've attached a scan of a page from the early 20th c. Henderson-Ames Company catalogue of masonic implements, namely for the IOOF (International Order of Odd Fellows). While not an exact sibling of the Ecole De Mars sword, it's nevertheless a blood relative. Attached Images

30th March 2023, 06:17 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	On my recent visit to Madrid, I spied several very similar swords in a painting at the Prado. It's the DEATH OF VIRIATUS by Jose de Madrazo, p.1807, a monumental-scale painting in the very popular then neoclassical style, influenced by the likes of David, Gros, Roques, etc. The iconography is typical of the Greco-Roman hero worship pieces, and includes the implements of war, of which these swords are integral. i thought that colleague Corrado26 may find this interesting. Even the scabbards are well-copied from the props the artists had available to him. Attached Images

31st March 2023, 11:48 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I'll be honest, I've no real confirmation about what this is or was or maybe, but under a personal feel lens I see this as having quite decent age to it. What I struggle with is the scabbard fittings and the peening of the tang, I've come to expect better of the French makers of the day and feel this may be something else completely. I looked through every page of Christian Aries work on the subject of swords and only a single entry was noted for the anything similar, a type already presented. What I didn't know which was interesting, is the extra quillons seen on the Ecole de Mars sword was actually based on the Moroccan Nimcha/Saif... and that they made a model with the same hilt too... one I have never seen in the market... An interesting thing to ponder over. Gavin Attached Images

31st March 2023, 11:35 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Many thanks for showing me this painting with the swords. It is really interesting and demonstrates for which purpose these swords perhaps have been made and have been in use.