THE BORDER REIVERS.

urbanspaceman · 2nd December 2022, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM

Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm

...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 07:58 PM

Hello Jim,
In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 08:27 PM

One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023

Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe.
The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc...

Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman · 3rd December 2022, 08:31 PM

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention.
This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language.
Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase.

This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from?
It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then.
Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely.
I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here.
All input is gratefully received.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 09:10 PM

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

urbanspaceman · 3rd December 2022, 09:15 PM

Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread?
I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.

Peter Hudson · 4th December 2022, 06:49 PM

In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to

http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm

and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour.
Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century.
Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'.
They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle!
Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2022, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

Spot on! The term 'colichemarde' term is entirely with respect to the blade, as the hilt forms are the same as on the small swords of the period. The term is apocryphal but the alignment with the cognate Konigsmark seems reasonable enough. His reputation as a duelist was likely the choice to term the blade form.

urbanspaceman · 5th December 2022, 09:09 PM

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?

3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look. Regards, Peter Hudson.

3rd December 2022, 08:27 PM	#4
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023 Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe. The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc... Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 08:44 PM.

3rd December 2022, 08:31 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Separated by a common language. Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention. This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language. Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase. This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from? It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then. Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely. I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here. All input is gratefully received. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 3rd December 2022 at 08:33 PM. Reason: add apology

3rd December 2022, 09:10 PM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German. I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start... A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz, Colichemarde. The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade. Regards, Peter. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 09:21 PM.

3rd December 2022, 09:15 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	hi-jack Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread? I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.

3rd December 2022, 07:58 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Hello Jim, In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism... Regards, Peter Hudson.

4th December 2022, 06:49 PM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour. Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century. Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'. They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle! Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE. Peter Hudson.

5th December 2022, 09:09 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	confusion over names Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish. Koningsberg is a town in Russia. Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?