THE BORDER REIVERS.

urbanspaceman · 26th November 2022, 12:43 PM

For anyone interested in Clan warfare and all its details (such as dress and weaponry) I can seriously recommend this BBC 3 part documentary by Neil Oliver.
https://www.facebook.com/Dazzlerfilm...6451934449838/

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2022, 03:26 PM

As noted, this is a fascinating topic, and seldom specified in most historical studies of Great Britain, but the 'Reivers' were a distinguishable group for centuries in these border regions between North England and Scotland. While references claim they existed as such as far as the early 17th century, it is of course obvious that they did not disappear, but simply became less known as a cohesive entity. They clearly assimilated into the societies of the recognized nations on either side which had effectively unified into one nation, Great Britain, so the outlaw convention had become infeasible under one law .
The inevitable strife remained, however political rather than warring.

The addition of personal geneological anecdotes here has greatly enhanced the dynamic of this discussion and for my view, heightened the discussion colorfully!
I would note that my own grandfather, a Highlander from the Western Isles, was noted in family lore to have advised, when choosing a wife, several attributes to seek, BUT be sure 'she is not a Campbell'.
This rather illustrates the internecine strife that existed between clans in Scotland, much as in most tribal cultures.

To best understand the character of these situations, with the many aspects of the Jacobite uprisings; the Stuart cause; Whig history; religious conflicts and clan conflicts of the British Isles the best reference I have found is "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans", Murray Pittock, 2009.

While not mentioning the Border Reivers by name, they were certainly part of the dynamics profoundly described in this analysis of these times .

Getting back to the main topic here, I would say that it was not just that Border Reivers were not specifically 'recruited' into one army or another, it that just as in most cases, people were not exactly 'card carrying' members of any specific group, clan or otherwise.Therefore though not 'officially' members of one army or another, they did function in auxiliary status in degree and as circumstances were in their favor. It is clearly noted that Reivers had only 'one side', which was their own family group, and that prevailed over all else.

Much as the famed 'pandours' in Europe, who were comprised of various ethnic and national groups and operated in assembled as raiding forces under the auspices of Austria in the mid 18th century, the 'Reivers' were much the same only less 'committed' to one specific controlling entity.

The 'pandours' adopted their own styles of warfare as well as weaponry, in the same manner the Reivers did, unique and effectively terrifying.
As I have mentioned, it would be interesting to look into the types of arms and armor that characterized the Border Reivers, and the influences that became integral in the development of nationally recognized forms from or through them.

Case in point would be the basket hilt, and how this distinctly formed weapon developed from the hilt forms of certain European swords, and became known in both England and Scotland in the 16th into 17th centuries. Many of the swords known to be used among the Border Reivers became essentially prototypes for what became the Highland hilt, or basket hilt.

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2022, 04:31 PM

Thanks to all for the replies ...As it happens Im a Charlton on my mothers side and even they were largely uprooted and moved to the Durmam coal Fields...Others were either executed often without trial or transported. The Apallatian region was heavily planted with Border Reiver names and Nixon and Armstrong were respectively President and moon walker ...both Reiver names. Place names in that region copiedfamous locations in the Border areas such as Durham County...and Durham City as well as Northumberland and Cumberland. It is understood that many dialectic words crop up in Hillbilly linguistics directly linked to Borden Reiver style.

In his book The Northumbrians the author Dan Jackson states that 25,000 Border Reivers were incorporated by Henry V111 into his cavalry making it the finest in Europe....

To compound the problem take a giant stride forward to Marsden Moor in 1644 ..the biggest fight on English soil ever! The Marquis of Newcastle with a couple of thousand Northern Horse on the Royalist side. These were Border Reivers in all but name but all were there in their famous White Coats by which they were then known. Other names were Hobilars and sometimes they took the name of the famous lance they carried..Prickers. The entire outfit was very late since the night before they were all the worse for drink but worse still a Royalist Prince Rupert.. gave them all a huge reprimand before they were placed on the battlefied. Of the roughly 3000 men probably consisting of half Infantry and Half Cav... only about 30 survived a massive Scottish onslaught...The Marquis ran away to the Low countries but a few years later was allowed to return but what about the Border Reivers?
In about 1603 when the amalgamation of Scotland with England occurred and by then the Borders were extinct... not even the word Borders was allowed and new laws were in place essentially trebling the fines against thieves ...and being caught with a horse could mean jail and or the chopping block. Even the famous Galloway horse was doomed thus the famous Border Reivers were closed down, rounded up, and either transported or killed...

To be a Border Reiver meant belonging to a clan like structures not unlike that of The Mafia with a kind of unwritten Reiver Mantra... An Eye For an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth....

The weapons of the Border Reivers is well worth looking at and the next phase I would like to bring on is just that...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2022, 04:44 PM

More great perspective Peter, and it is great to have more dimension revealed on how these distinct Reiver groups were indeed factored into armies in these cases.
As agreed the use of their weapon forms and many terms which have entered vernacular as expressions have shown the profound influence the Reivers have had culturally.

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2022, 04:56 PM

Thanks Jim and nice to see the great artwork you have detailed. Peter

Please download the following;

https://archive.org/details/lordward...p?view=theater

urbanspaceman · 26th November 2022, 05:28 PM

So long as the two countries were divided, the borders were policed by neither Scotland nor England; consequently, Reivers could reive in both countries and hide in the borders.
The Borders also provided refuge for Scots families who had been outlawed... as was often the case. These families tended to be politically troublesome as well as criminal, so inevitably they gave allegiance to no-one and stole from everyone.
Brian Moffatt has researched and recorded everything there is to know about the Reivers over on the West side of Northumberland. His website is a monumental - ongoing - work that gives jaw-dropping insight into the Reivers and the debatable lands:
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
Stealing cattle in Scotland and driving it into England... and vice-versa, was simply too good an opportunity to ignore. Stealing weapons from both countries was also a good idea and consequently led to the enormous variety of swords used.
Here on Tyneside we have an expression: "The Wilds of Wannie" meaning beyond civilisation. This comes from the Wansbeck River and hills running West to East across Northumberland about 20 miles north of Newcastle. Once you crossed over, you were in territory that was not policed and obviously dangerous; even after unification it was still not safe.

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2022, 06:55 PM

Thanks Keith,
Brian Moffat has more than 6 decades of study on this subject and has amassed a museum load of detail and research second to none. He is well down the road of putting a complete museum of artefacts in Hawick and hopefully we should be visiting there on its completion.

Thanks for your recent e mail last week telling me about Brian Moffat and his incredible saga.

Meanwhile on combing through information at Durham University here is a monumentally important thesis that vitally places The Northern Horse and its theory in warfare into perspective ...It shows how in the 16th C. these English Cavalry were used on the continent and covers how they were deployed as well as fine detail on their armaments.

Thus Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

Regards Peter Hudson.

M ELEY · 27th November 2022, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).
Yesterday 11:31 AM

Jim, thank you do much for this valuable material! As the Reivers were put down by the early 1600's, these sword types that the article indicates (pre-Claymore) are indeed the types they would have carried. I would also suggest the possible use of the claidheamh da laimh (the Braveheart sword type) during this time period-

26th November 2022, 12:43 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Blood of the Clans For anyone interested in Clan warfare and all its details (such as dress and weaponry) I can seriously recommend this BBC 3 part documentary by Neil Oliver. https://www.facebook.com/Dazzlerfilm...6451934449838/

26th November 2022, 04:31 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Thanks to all for the replies ...As it happens Im a Charlton on my mothers side and even they were largely uprooted and moved to the Durmam coal Fields...Others were either executed often without trial or transported. The Apallatian region was heavily planted with Border Reiver names and Nixon and Armstrong were respectively President and moon walker ...both Reiver names. Place names in that region copiedfamous locations in the Border areas such as Durham County...and Durham City as well as Northumberland and Cumberland. It is understood that many dialectic words crop up in Hillbilly linguistics directly linked to Borden Reiver style. In his book The Northumbrians the author Dan Jackson states that 25,000 Border Reivers were incorporated by Henry V111 into his cavalry making it the finest in Europe.... To compound the problem take a giant stride forward to Marsden Moor in 1644 ..the biggest fight on English soil ever! The Marquis of Newcastle with a couple of thousand Northern Horse on the Royalist side. These were Border Reivers in all but name but all were there in their famous White Coats by which they were then known. Other names were Hobilars and sometimes they took the name of the famous lance they carried..Prickers. The entire outfit was very late since the night before they were all the worse for drink but worse still a Royalist Prince Rupert.. gave them all a huge reprimand before they were placed on the battlefied. Of the roughly 3000 men probably consisting of half Infantry and Half Cav... only about 30 survived a massive Scottish onslaught...The Marquis ran away to the Low countries but a few years later was allowed to return but what about the Border Reivers? In about 1603 when the amalgamation of Scotland with England occurred and by then the Borders were extinct... not even the word Borders was allowed and new laws were in place essentially trebling the fines against thieves ...and being caught with a horse could mean jail and or the chopping block. Even the famous Galloway horse was doomed thus the famous Border Reivers were closed down, rounded up, and either transported or killed... To be a Border Reiver meant belonging to a clan like structures not unlike that of The Mafia with a kind of unwritten Reiver Mantra... An Eye For an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth.... The weapons of the Border Reivers is well worth looking at and the next phase I would like to bring on is just that... Regards, Peter Hudson. Last edited by Peter Hudson; 26th November 2022 at 06:31 PM.

26th November 2022, 05:28 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	History So long as the two countries were divided, the borders were policed by neither Scotland nor England; consequently, Reivers could reive in both countries and hide in the borders. The Borders also provided refuge for Scots families who had been outlawed... as was often the case. These families tended to be politically troublesome as well as criminal, so inevitably they gave allegiance to no-one and stole from everyone. Brian Moffatt has researched and recorded everything there is to know about the Reivers over on the West side of Northumberland. His website is a monumental - ongoing - work that gives jaw-dropping insight into the Reivers and the debatable lands: https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic Stealing cattle in Scotland and driving it into England... and vice-versa, was simply too good an opportunity to ignore. Stealing weapons from both countries was also a good idea and consequently led to the enormous variety of swords used. Here on Tyneside we have an expression: "The Wilds of Wannie" meaning beyond civilisation. This comes from the Wansbeck River and hills running West to East across Northumberland about 20 miles north of Newcastle. Once you crossed over, you were in territory that was not policed and obviously dangerous; even after unification it was still not safe.

26th November 2022, 03:26 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	As noted, this is a fascinating topic, and seldom specified in most historical studies of Great Britain, but the 'Reivers' were a distinguishable group for centuries in these border regions between North England and Scotland. While references claim they existed as such as far as the early 17th century, it is of course obvious that they did not disappear, but simply became less known as a cohesive entity. They clearly assimilated into the societies of the recognized nations on either side which had effectively unified into one nation, Great Britain, so the outlaw convention had become infeasible under one law . The inevitable strife remained, however political rather than warring. The addition of personal geneological anecdotes here has greatly enhanced the dynamic of this discussion and for my view, heightened the discussion colorfully! I would note that my own grandfather, a Highlander from the Western Isles, was noted in family lore to have advised, when choosing a wife, several attributes to seek, BUT be sure 'she is not a Campbell'. This rather illustrates the internecine strife that existed between clans in Scotland, much as in most tribal cultures. To best understand the character of these situations, with the many aspects of the Jacobite uprisings; the Stuart cause; Whig history; religious conflicts and clan conflicts of the British Isles the best reference I have found is "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans", Murray Pittock, 2009. While not mentioning the Border Reivers by name, they were certainly part of the dynamics profoundly described in this analysis of these times . Getting back to the main topic here, I would say that it was not just that Border Reivers were not specifically 'recruited' into one army or another, it that just as in most cases, people were not exactly 'card carrying' members of any specific group, clan or otherwise.Therefore though not 'officially' members of one army or another, they did function in auxiliary status in degree and as circumstances were in their favor. It is clearly noted that Reivers had only 'one side', which was their own family group, and that prevailed over all else. Much as the famed 'pandours' in Europe, who were comprised of various ethnic and national groups and operated in assembled as raiding forces under the auspices of Austria in the mid 18th century, the 'Reivers' were much the same only less 'committed' to one specific controlling entity. The 'pandours' adopted their own styles of warfare as well as weaponry, in the same manner the Reivers did, unique and effectively terrifying. As I have mentioned, it would be interesting to look into the types of arms and armor that characterized the Border Reivers, and the influences that became integral in the development of nationally recognized forms from or through them. Case in point would be the basket hilt, and how this distinctly formed weapon developed from the hilt forms of certain European swords, and became known in both England and Scotland in the 16th into 17th centuries. Many of the swords known to be used among the Border Reivers became essentially prototypes for what became the Highland hilt, or basket hilt.

26th November 2022, 04:56 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Thanks Jim and nice to see the great artwork you have detailed. Peter Please download the following; https://archive.org/details/lordward...p?view=theater

26th November 2022, 06:55 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Thanks Keith, Brian Moffat has more than 6 decades of study on this subject and has amassed a museum load of detail and research second to none. He is well down the road of putting a complete museum of artefacts in Hawick and hopefully we should be visiting there on its completion. Thanks for your recent e mail last week telling me about Brian Moffat and his incredible saga. Meanwhile on combing through information at Durham University here is a monumentally important thesis that vitally places The Northern Horse and its theory in warfare into perspective ...It shows how in the 16th C. these English Cavalry were used on the continent and covers how they were deployed as well as fine detail on their armaments. Thus Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/ Regards Peter Hudson.