The m1804 British naval cutlass

adrian · 17th November 2022, 08:16 PM

I can't make out the maker's name, do you recall it?

HADLEY (the H quite faint).

adrian · 17th November 2022, 08:23 PM

I am not sure, but could this be one of the 1000 modified cutlasses.

Does it bear any Ordnance stamps? If it was an Ordnance made or altered sword one would expect to see an inspection stamp at least, especially if it dates to about the 1840-50s and it being a peacetime item. If a prototype or commercial item then an Ordnance view stamp would not be present.

M ELEY · 17th November 2022, 08:37 PM

Those are both incredible cutlasses! Adrian, I would have loved to have had that Hadley model!

CC, I would think a prototype is possible, but I also agree with Adrian that if it were used by any govertnment-associated parties, I'd expect to see the ordnance stamp. If purely a prototype that saw no service, then who knows? Still an amazing piece! Is it from your collection?

I think Gilkerson pointed out quite succinctly that the vast majority of ships that would have carried the m1804 were the merchantmen. Their ships vastly outnumbered the Britisuh Navy and were always under the direct threat of being attacked by the French (and their allies, Danish pirates, etc) and later American privateers during conflicts. Here's an old broadside from my collection stressing that point-

M ELEY · 17th November 2022, 09:00 PM

So, I hate to be redundant and beat a dead horse, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around a few final questions. CC, on your m1804 with the crown mark only. Do we know that this model was only exported to Sweden? In other words, this type probably didn't go to Portugal or another friendly nation? Were they used by their navy or strictly their merchant fleet? Were they only distributed during the time of the troubles or did they continue to produce this type (as indicated by another source I read claiming large purchases into the 1830's?). I would assume with rare exception that swords marked GR, WR and VR were used by the British naval ships only. Would you mind showing us a closeup of the Swedish crown marking for posterity? (sorry to trouble you. I myself am not so great at posting pics, let alone using software/electronics/social media, etc, etc. As I always say, "Luddite and proud!"

In looking at the 'oddball' S&K model from Boarders Away (pg 88 and the spurious GR marking on 86), Gilkerson implies that the reason the German manufacturer, who made these up until mid to late 19th, apparently, used the obsolete marking was to show "quality". Hmm, well it was an ordnance stamp showing government use and much as the broad arrow, was meant to detract from blokes stealing the swords after their tour of duty ended. I personally believe this GR stamp was used both out of reverence for the old popular British model and a reminder of Great Britain's kind friendship in helping her allies. One will note this spurious crown, as it is different from most others. It is three 'lobed', tilted slightly backward to show the inner rim of the interior and has a small cross at it's peak. Familiarizing oneself with this mark and also noting the subtle differences in this German model's design should help distinguish models made in England during the period and those that created at a later time.

CutlassCollector · 18th November 2022, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

So, I hate to be redundant and beat a dead horse, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around a few final questions. CC, on your m1804 with the crown mark only. Do we know that this model was only exported to Sweden? In other words, this type probably didn't go to Portugal or another friendly nation? Were they used by their navy or strictly their merchant fleet? Were they only distributed during the time of the troubles or did they continue to produce this type (as indicated by another source I read claiming large purchases into the 1830's?). I would assume with rare exception that swords marked GR, WR and VR were used by the British naval ships only. Would you mind showing us a closeup of the Swedish crown marking for posterity? (sorry to trouble you.

I have never solved the Swedish? crown on the 1804.

I think that some 1804s may have been sold off from Britain but most were copied and manufactured by different countries.
SSS has a picture of one in the National Maritime museum which was dated as 1820 by the Norwegian donor. Norway started up a manufacturing factory at Kongsberg in 1814 and I think the Norway version was produced there but I can't find where I know that from at the moment!

SSS also says Spain and Sweden followed British patterns of cutlass in the 19th century but whether that means exact or not is unclear.

Sim also shows an 1804 with similar crown but only identifies it as Scandinavian(?) and he also thinks that there were signs of a previous cypher polished out of the blade.

So conflicting information all of which can probably be resolved by a Swedish or Norwegian expert!

Here are pictures of the crown from my example and Sim's book.

M ELEY · 19th November 2022, 05:13 AM

Thank you for posting these, CC! These crowns look nearly identical to the 'spurious' crown marking on the S&K in Gilkerson! Maybe we are onto something! Note the crown is tilted to expose the interior rim and both have the small cross at the top. As you pointed out, apparently other markets were making the m1804, so perhaps S&K used the crown mark on their exports and just added the GR for reminiscence sake!

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2022, 03:20 PM

I think indeed you guys might be onto something. It seems of course that it was long a Solingen convention to use spurious markings and other favored phrases etc. to appeal to certain clientele. For example, the fabled ANDREA FERARA for Scottish blades and SAHAGUN, the Spanish maker for North Europe.

In the 19th century Solingen produced many blades for Mexico, America and others using their symbols, devices and motif. Why not use a Swedish crown for cutlasses going there?

CutlassCollector · 19th November 2022, 03:33 PM

Hi Mark,

Look closely at the crown in Boarders Away it only has 3 lobes the Swedish one has 4.

I have done a bit more research. If you look up the online collection in Swedish Marine museums there are a number of 1804s with this crown. Interesting that their other cutlass models do not have it. It may indicate that these were manufactured in Britain and sold to Sweden to help arm them against Russia (history repeats, I guess).
https://digitaltmuseum.se/011024801576/huggare

I was correct about the Norwegian 1804 in SSS. These were produced at Kongsberg 1817/18 and were copied from captured British 1804s. The Greenwich museum has it online now - I believe the same sword as in SSS. It has markings on the hilt - no Swedish crown.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/ob...c-object-78687

So much more to the history of the 1804!!

CC

CutlassCollector · 18th November 2022, 11:13 AM

Does it bear any Ordnance stamps? If it was an Ordnance made or altered sword one would expect to see an inspection stamp at least, especially if it dates to about the 1840-50s and it being a peacetime item. If a prototype or commercial item then an Ordnance view stamp would not be present.[/QUOTE]

No markings and this is obviously the stumbling block!
The puzzle is the disparity between the 1804 blade and 1840s guard. Private purchase generally differ little from the military version, although the use of brass (it being cheaper than steel at the time) is sometimes seen on hilts and guards on private cutlasses.

17th November 2022, 08:37 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,203	Those are both incredible cutlasses! Adrian, I would have loved to have had that Hadley model! CC, I would think a prototype is possible, but I also agree with Adrian that if it were used by any govertnment-associated parties, I'd expect to see the ordnance stamp. If purely a prototype that saw no service, then who knows? Still an amazing piece! Is it from your collection? I think Gilkerson pointed out quite succinctly that the vast majority of ships that would have carried the m1804 were the merchantmen. Their ships vastly outnumbered the Britisuh Navy and were always under the direct threat of being attacked by the French (and their allies, Danish pirates, etc) and later American privateers during conflicts. Here's an old broadside from my collection stressing that point- Attached Images

17th November 2022, 09:00 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,203	So, I hate to be redundant and beat a dead horse, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around a few final questions. CC, on your m1804 with the crown mark only. Do we know that this model was only exported to Sweden? In other words, this type probably didn't go to Portugal or another friendly nation? Were they used by their navy or strictly their merchant fleet? Were they only distributed during the time of the troubles or did they continue to produce this type (as indicated by another source I read claiming large purchases into the 1830's?). I would assume with rare exception that swords marked GR, WR and VR were used by the British naval ships only. Would you mind showing us a closeup of the Swedish crown marking for posterity? (sorry to trouble you. I myself am not so great at posting pics, let alone using software/electronics/social media, etc, etc. As I always say, "Luddite and proud!" In looking at the 'oddball' S&K model from Boarders Away (pg 88 and the spurious GR marking on 86), Gilkerson implies that the reason the German manufacturer, who made these up until mid to late 19th, apparently, used the obsolete marking was to show "quality". Hmm, well it was an ordnance stamp showing government use and much as the broad arrow, was meant to detract from blokes stealing the swords after their tour of duty ended. I personally believe this GR stamp was used both out of reverence for the old popular British model and a reminder of Great Britain's kind friendship in helping her allies. One will note this spurious crown, as it is different from most others. It is three 'lobed', tilted slightly backward to show the inner rim of the interior and has a small cross at it's peak. Familiarizing oneself with this mark and also noting the subtle differences in this German model's design should help distinguish models made in England during the period and those that created at a later time. Last edited by M ELEY; 17th November 2022 at 11:37 PM.

17th November 2022, 08:16 PM	#1
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 135	I can't make out the maker's name, do you recall it? HADLEY (the H quite faint).

17th November 2022, 08:23 PM	#2
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 135	I am not sure, but could this be one of the 1000 modified cutlasses. Does it bear any Ordnance stamps? If it was an Ordnance made or altered sword one would expect to see an inspection stamp at least, especially if it dates to about the 1840-50s and it being a peacetime item. If a prototype or commercial item then an Ordnance view stamp would not be present.

19th November 2022, 05:13 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,203	Thank you for posting these, CC! These crowns look nearly identical to the 'spurious' crown marking on the S&K in Gilkerson! Maybe we are onto something! Note the crown is tilted to expose the interior rim and both have the small cross at the top. As you pointed out, apparently other markets were making the m1804, so perhaps S&K used the crown mark on their exports and just added the GR for reminiscence sake!

19th November 2022, 03:20 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,651	I think indeed you guys might be onto something. It seems of course that it was long a Solingen convention to use spurious markings and other favored phrases etc. to appeal to certain clientele. For example, the fabled ANDREA FERARA for Scottish blades and SAHAGUN, the Spanish maker for North Europe. In the 19th century Solingen produced many blades for Mexico, America and others using their symbols, devices and motif. Why not use a Swedish crown for cutlasses going there?

19th November 2022, 03:33 PM	#8
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 369	Hi Mark, Look closely at the crown in Boarders Away it only has 3 lobes the Swedish one has 4. I have done a bit more research. If you look up the online collection in Swedish Marine museums there are a number of 1804s with this crown. Interesting that their other cutlass models do not have it. It may indicate that these were manufactured in Britain and sold to Sweden to help arm them against Russia (history repeats, I guess). https://digitaltmuseum.se/011024801576/huggare I was correct about the Norwegian 1804 in SSS. These were produced at Kongsberg 1817/18 and were copied from captured British 1804s. The Greenwich museum has it online now - I believe the same sword as in SSS. It has markings on the hilt - no Swedish crown. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/ob...c-object-78687 So much more to the history of the 1804!! CC

18th November 2022, 11:13 AM	#9
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 369	Does it bear any Ordnance stamps? If it was an Ordnance made or altered sword one would expect to see an inspection stamp at least, especially if it dates to about the 1840-50s and it being a peacetime item. If a prototype or commercial item then an Ordnance view stamp would not be present.[/QUOTE] No markings and this is obviously the stumbling block! The puzzle is the disparity between the 1804 blade and 1840s guard. Private purchase generally differ little from the military version, although the use of brass (it being cheaper than steel at the time) is sometimes seen on hilts and guards on private cutlasses.