Balinese keris advice

Gustav · 28th October 2022, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

All I really wanted to do was to cause people to think about why I wanted to disconnect Balinese keris from Balinese warriors, and the answer to that is pretty simple, it was because the keris was not, is not a weapon of war.

Interestingly, Margaret Wiener in her much mentioned book writes:

"In precolonial Bali, all men owned at least one keris. This marked, in part, their status as warriors. Since all of a rulers adult male subjects were expected to fight in his wars, as intruments of royal agency, keris defined manhood in relation to a certain kind of political order."

And:

"The role keris played in constituting power hinged upon the fact that keris were first and foremost weapons, meant to be used against external enemies in war or internal ones in executions."

A book, always worth of rereading indeed.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2022, 09:33 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UneS2Uwc6xw

I respect MW enormously, since its publication I have recommended her work on Bali to perhaps every person who has asked me for guidance in their quest to understand the keris, however, I do not necessarily agree with every single word she wrote, nor with all of her published opinions.

I do not slavishly rely upon academic works to form my own opinions, and some of those opinions do vary from the opinions of academics.

As David has commented, this thread has become an exercise in semantics, but semantics is the study of meaning and truth, and the only way that any word can be understood as it should be understood is to analyse the meaning of that word and the truth encapsulated in that meaning. Ideally language should be used with precision, if it is not used with precision, that inadequately constructed language can generate misunderstanding and ignorance.

If what I have just written is true, then we need to consider this:-

1) A conflict or skirmish is not a war, neither is a confrontation or disagreement a war.

2) Engaging in a conflict or skirmish upon the orders of one's lord does not make a farmer either a warrior or a soldier.

3) Even fighting in a war does not make a farmer a warrior.

4) A weapon that might be used in a war does not make that weapon an implement that was intended for war, thus it is not a weapon of war.

5) The nature of a weapon can be many fold, and although that nature might include the letting of blood, in the case of the keris that letting of blood is not the only purpose of the keris.

The above is probably about as simple as I can make it, and yes, it is all about semantics:- the study of meaning and truth.

Gustav · 28th October 2022, 10:39 PM

Meaningless, can be deleted.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2022, 11:18 PM

Quite possibly so Gustav, but since I have been required for many years to be very conscious of the truth, meaning and logic of words, this is only to be expected.

Unlike many people I do not find the study of words to be onerous nor objectionable, I find it to be essential.

I was told many years ago by somebody, & I honestly forget who told me this, it might have been a high school teacher, that we cannot throw words around haphazardly we should regard words as being similar to bullets, not only in required accuracy but also in terminal effect.

A lot of the way I think and the way I act has come to me from things others have taught me, or maybe not necessarily "taught", but just their passing comments. I do try to follow some of this good advice, but I'm not always successful. I tend to be too verbose at times.

I recently had a little bit of writing published in (of all things) a book dealing with philosophy. I think it needed to be restricted to 5000 words, in any case, it needed to be of a defined length, & written in a defined style.

So I sat down and wrote the thing in a spare afternoon. It did not take long. But when I ran it through a word counter I had something like 20,000 words. The next 15 drafts were principally concerned with reducing that stack of garble that I had produced to an acceptable minimum.

I don't think I deliberately try to turn myself into a Gordian knot --- and I prefer to take this analogy as a compliment --- but I believe this sometimes might happen because I feel that I owe other people the common courtesy of trying my best to explain why I might take a certain position.

As to academia. I am not an academic, but I do have close friends and family who have been, & still are subjected to the harsh dictates of this segment of society. I have carried out paid work for a number of academics. Frankly I do feel sorry for academics and the world in which they live, but at the same time I am very appreciative of the contributions of some of these people to the bank of knowledge that they have made available to all of us.

EDIT

Too late Gustav, I had already read what you wrote & then deleted, and I thought it was, in its way, a beautiful piece of writing, perhaps one of the more perceptive things you have posted to this forum.

Jean · 29th October 2022, 08:30 AM

By the way my impression is that these 2 guys on the fist pic may be Sasak from Lombok and not Balinese?

Gustav · 29th October 2022, 11:11 AM

Jean, your impression has many facets to it, but basically is grounded on the fact, that even on the new NMVW website, where collections from Leiden, Amsterdam and Rotterdam are thrown together, the identifications of photographs are on quite low standard.

This is a photograph by Isidore van Kinsbergen. In 1865 he visited Bali, or more precisely, Buleleng. He never went to Lombok. Many if not at least a half of the photographs made in Buleleng on the NMVW carry the word Lombok in their "traditional" descriptions: we have a photograph named "Enkele tempels en offerplaatsen op Lombok" (some temples and offering places on Lombok), the alternative title of it being "Huis van den Koning van Bali" (house of the King of Bali), we have a picture described "Edellieden (Ida`s) uit Lombok in hofkostuum" (Aristocrats (Brahmans) from Lombok in court attire), which depict two adwisers of Raja of Buleleng, whose names are actually known, etc.

Also the photograph in question on the NMVW carries the title "Mannen uit Lombok in wapenuitrusting" and alternative title "Balinesen".

It is clear that the descriptions from NMVW website, which are taken over from the old Tropenmuseum website, are not on standard and actually misleading. The source for correct identifications is the monograph about Kinsbergen, which, as I understand, uses Kinsbergen's diarys. Unfortunately the photography in question doesn't appear in the monograph.

Well, there is a possibility these two man are mercenaries from Lombok indeed, but I would say, they are not Sasak but Balinese.

-----------------------------------------

Alan, thank you.

28th October 2022, 09:33 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UneS2Uwc6xw I respect MW enormously, since its publication I have recommended her work on Bali to perhaps every person who has asked me for guidance in their quest to understand the keris, however, I do not necessarily agree with every single word she wrote, nor with all of her published opinions. I do not slavishly rely upon academic works to form my own opinions, and some of those opinions do vary from the opinions of academics. As David has commented, this thread has become an exercise in semantics, but semantics is the study of meaning and truth, and the only way that any word can be understood as it should be understood is to analyse the meaning of that word and the truth encapsulated in that meaning. Ideally language should be used with precision, if it is not used with precision, that inadequately constructed language can generate misunderstanding and ignorance. If what I have just written is true, then we need to consider this:- 1) A conflict or skirmish is not a war, neither is a confrontation or disagreement a war. 2) Engaging in a conflict or skirmish upon the orders of one's lord does not make a farmer either a warrior or a soldier. 3) Even fighting in a war does not make a farmer a warrior. 4) A weapon that might be used in a war does not make that weapon an implement that was intended for war, thus it is not a weapon of war. 5) The nature of a weapon can be many fold, and although that nature might include the letting of blood, in the case of the keris that letting of blood is not the only purpose of the keris. The above is probably about as simple as I can make it, and yes, it is all about semantics:- the study of meaning and truth. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 28th October 2022 at 10:25 PM. Reason: precision

28th October 2022, 10:39 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Meaningless, can be deleted. Last edited by Gustav; 28th October 2022 at 11:11 PM.

28th October 2022, 11:18 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Quite possibly so Gustav, but since I have been required for many years to be very conscious of the truth, meaning and logic of words, this is only to be expected. Unlike many people I do not find the study of words to be onerous nor objectionable, I find it to be essential. I was told many years ago by somebody, & I honestly forget who told me this, it might have been a high school teacher, that we cannot throw words around haphazardly we should regard words as being similar to bullets, not only in required accuracy but also in terminal effect. A lot of the way I think and the way I act has come to me from things others have taught me, or maybe not necessarily "taught", but just their passing comments. I do try to follow some of this good advice, but I'm not always successful. I tend to be too verbose at times. I recently had a little bit of writing published in (of all things) a book dealing with philosophy. I think it needed to be restricted to 5000 words, in any case, it needed to be of a defined length, & written in a defined style. So I sat down and wrote the thing in a spare afternoon. It did not take long. But when I ran it through a word counter I had something like 20,000 words. The next 15 drafts were principally concerned with reducing that stack of garble that I had produced to an acceptable minimum. I don't think I deliberately try to turn myself into a Gordian knot --- and I prefer to take this analogy as a compliment --- but I believe this sometimes might happen because I feel that I owe other people the common courtesy of trying my best to explain why I might take a certain position. As to academia. I am not an academic, but I do have close friends and family who have been, & still are subjected to the harsh dictates of this segment of society. I have carried out paid work for a number of academics. Frankly I do feel sorry for academics and the world in which they live, but at the same time I am very appreciative of the contributions of some of these people to the bank of knowledge that they have made available to all of us. EDIT Too late Gustav, I had already read what you wrote & then deleted, and I thought it was, in its way, a beautiful piece of writing, perhaps one of the more perceptive things you have posted to this forum.

29th October 2022, 08:30 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	By the way my impression is that these 2 guys on the fist pic may be Sasak from Lombok and not Balinese?

29th October 2022, 11:11 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Jean, your impression has many facets to it, but basically is grounded on the fact, that even on the new NMVW website, where collections from Leiden, Amsterdam and Rotterdam are thrown together, the identifications of photographs are on quite low standard. This is a photograph by Isidore van Kinsbergen. In 1865 he visited Bali, or more precisely, Buleleng. He never went to Lombok. Many if not at least a half of the photographs made in Buleleng on the NMVW carry the word Lombok in their "traditional" descriptions: we have a photograph named "Enkele tempels en offerplaatsen op Lombok" (some temples and offering places on Lombok), the alternative title of it being "Huis van den Koning van Bali" (house of the King of Bali), we have a picture described "Edellieden (Ida`s) uit Lombok in hofkostuum" (Aristocrats (Brahmans) from Lombok in court attire), which depict two adwisers of Raja of Buleleng, whose names are actually known, etc. Also the photograph in question on the NMVW carries the title "Mannen uit Lombok in wapenuitrusting" and alternative title "Balinesen". It is clear that the descriptions from NMVW website, which are taken over from the old Tropenmuseum website, are not on standard and actually misleading. The source for correct identifications is the monograph about Kinsbergen, which, as I understand, uses Kinsbergen's diarys. Unfortunately the photography in question doesn't appear in the monograph. Well, there is a possibility these two man are mercenaries from Lombok indeed, but I would say, they are not Sasak but Balinese. ----------------------------------------- Alan, thank you.