Zulu Spear

katana · 17th June 2006, 04:17 PM

DD,
It is my understanding that Shaka, had the shafts (metal) of Assengai (and I think other types of spears) lenghened. This allowed the spear to be withdrawn more easily and quickly from the unfortunate victim. In battle- conditions this was important ....a spear quickly withdrawn was ready for the next opponent.
The second spear certainly looks to be the earlier style because of the shorter shaft....and therefore quite possibly old. I say 'possibly' because again these could be faked. However, IMHO yours looks to be genuine.
I have an Assengai, which was made pre 1964, I suspect its '40's - '50's, it too seems machine finished. Very similar to the blade in your picture.It is well made and well balanced but obviously hasn't the 'aura' of an original spear. I would say it is a 'replica' and it originated in S Africa.
Going back to the extruded bar: Many African countries were purchasing old equipment/machinery from Europe etc. after WW2 .It is possible that it was extruded from old foundry equipment but using 'modern' steel.
I am sure there are others on the forum whom have much greater knowledge than I, hopefully they will add to the thread.

I forgot to mention, many have been 'fooled' at some time or other, especially on eBay. But sometimes, I feel, you have to take risks ....nothing ventured... nothing gained.

I think the important thing is that you learn from these mistakes................

The Double D · 17th June 2006, 05:31 PM

Here is a very interesting write up of the Zulu Army and its weaponery. The Iklwe apparently didn't last all that long. It was a weapon of Shaka's era. By time Cetshwayo's armies took the field they were back to carrying throwing spears. Of course the Zulu's were starting to use firearms also. THE ZULU MILITARY ORGANIZATION AND THE CHALLENGE OF 1879

If your spear was made in the 50's by Zulu's to a pattern and quality used by Zulu's in the 50's and intended to be used as a spear as the Zulu's used a spear, would it be a replica? Even if it was made by Zulu's in the 50's in the same manner and quality as spears made in the 1800's would it be a replica?

My "1950's" spear has the aura and the feel of what I expected a qenuine South African spear would be. Here is a picture of my entire Spear Collection

I have been invited to go to Johannesburg in August to visit a fellow who is a well known local authority and collector of South African Arms. He said he would give me some pointers on Zulu weapons, so I may extend the time period between times I am deceived.

In talking with him he pointed out a South Afrcian spear he would help me look for. It is a Askari Spear carried by Native troops during WWII. Something about an official GI issue South African spear appeals to me. Spear, Throwing, Hand Operated M1A1, FSN 123 4567 8901, 1 each

Here is a picture of an Askari and spear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askari Notice socket mount and no tang.

Yes sometime you just have to take the chance.

I've got the history down, now I just need to learn what the real thing looks like.

katana · 17th June 2006, 05:46 PM

DD your're a genius

I bought 2 spears from the son of a soldier stationed in and around S.A during WW2. I was assured they were given to his father by a Zulu he befriended. (It was a parting gift).
The problem was the spears were SOCKETTED and not usually attributed to the Zulu. I assumed that this guy was mistaken, and as they were heavy, forged spears I kept them.
Now everything makes sense........it looks like I have 2 Askara type spears

I will post pics later............got to go to a barbeque..at least while the sun is shining

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2006, 05:57 PM

I always thought of Askari's as part of German East Africa but I imagine the name stuck. Searching Askari I found this picture.

Guard, allied air training school at Waterkleof pretoria 1943.

The Double D · 17th June 2006, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

DD your're a genius

I bought 2 spears from the son of a soldier stationed in and around S.A during WW2. I was assured they were given to his father by a Zulu he befriended. (It was a parting gift).
The problem was the spears were SOCKETTED and not usually attributed to the Zulu. I assumed that this guy was mistaken, and as they were heavy, forged spears I kept them.
Now everything makes sense........it looks like I have 2 Askara type spears

Hey you guys are supposed be teaching me!! I'm the new guy!!

katana · 17th June 2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Hey you guys are supposed be teaching me!! I'm the new guy!!

EDUCATION IS A TWO WAY STREET

Or as Confucius would have said 'the master can always learn from the pupil'

p.s I'm relatively new as well

p.p.s Because of the different backgrounds, different weapons collections and different levels of expertise within this group. Its the 'pooling of ideas and opinions' offered by members that teach us all, pupils and masters. We are all 'masters' of a subject or skill, as we are pupils in others.....I'm sure Confucius would have put it better...

The Double D · 18th June 2006, 09:17 AM

Yes we can always learn from each other. I think that a lot of what we know and learn about these articles is a lot like finding pieces to a puzzle. The experience collectors may have alot of pieces, but the new collecter may have found the one missing piece to complete the picture. We need to be open minded and willing to share what ever knowledge we have.

In the picture I posted above I think there may clues to the origination of the Spears. The ornateness of the Zande spear makes it fairly easy to identify.

The less flamboyant South or East African Spears in my picture are a little more difficult. I am sure there are clues in the photo. Shape, size, material, construction methods, and hafting must be some sort of indicator. I wonder also if those same features might even identify maker or source. The tang mount is something that appears to me to be associated with South African spears.

I kind of believe that the top blade is some sort of machine made blade, made in quantity for bartering with the local population for whatever commodity they might have to trade. Thoughts? Was that a practice in Africa?

katana · 18th June 2006, 11:36 AM

Here are the pictures of the two spears I mentioned. They are heavy, I think too heavy for a throwing spear.

17th June 2006, 05:57 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	I always thought of Askari's as part of German East Africa but I imagine the name stuck. Searching Askari I found this picture. Guard, allied air training school at Waterkleof pretoria 1943. Attached Images

18th June 2006, 11:36 AM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here are the pictures of the two spears I mentioned. They are heavy, I think too heavy for a throwing spear. Attached Images

17th June 2006, 04:17 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	DD, It is my understanding that Shaka, had the shafts (metal) of Assengai (and I think other types of spears) lenghened. This allowed the spear to be withdrawn more easily and quickly from the unfortunate victim. In battle- conditions this was important ....a spear quickly withdrawn was ready for the next opponent. The second spear certainly looks to be the earlier style because of the shorter shaft....and therefore quite possibly old. I say 'possibly' because again these could be faked. However, IMHO yours looks to be genuine. I have an Assengai, which was made pre 1964, I suspect its '40's - '50's, it too seems machine finished. Very similar to the blade in your picture.It is well made and well balanced but obviously hasn't the 'aura' of an original spear. I would say it is a 'replica' and it originated in S Africa. Going back to the extruded bar: Many African countries were purchasing old equipment/machinery from Europe etc. after WW2 .It is possible that it was extruded from old foundry equipment but using 'modern' steel. I am sure there are others on the forum whom have much greater knowledge than I, hopefully they will add to the thread. I forgot to mention, many have been 'fooled' at some time or other, especially on eBay. But sometimes, I feel, you have to take risks ....nothing ventured... nothing gained. I think the important thing is that you learn from these mistakes................

17th June 2006, 05:31 PM	#2
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Here is a very interesting write up of the Zulu Army and its weaponery. The Iklwe apparently didn't last all that long. It was a weapon of Shaka's era. By time Cetshwayo's armies took the field they were back to carrying throwing spears. Of course the Zulu's were starting to use firearms also. THE ZULU MILITARY ORGANIZATION AND THE CHALLENGE OF 1879 If your spear was made in the 50's by Zulu's to a pattern and quality used by Zulu's in the 50's and intended to be used as a spear as the Zulu's used a spear, would it be a replica? Even if it was made by Zulu's in the 50's in the same manner and quality as spears made in the 1800's would it be a replica? My "1950's" spear has the aura and the feel of what I expected a qenuine South African spear would be. Here is a picture of my entire Spear Collection I have been invited to go to Johannesburg in August to visit a fellow who is a well known local authority and collector of South African Arms. He said he would give me some pointers on Zulu weapons, so I may extend the time period between times I am deceived. In talking with him he pointed out a South Afrcian spear he would help me look for. It is a Askari Spear carried by Native troops during WWII. Something about an official GI issue South African spear appeals to me. Spear, Throwing, Hand Operated M1A1, FSN 123 4567 8901, 1 each Here is a picture of an Askari and spear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askari Notice socket mount and no tang. Yes sometime you just have to take the chance. I've got the history down, now I just need to learn what the real thing looks like.

17th June 2006, 05:46 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	DD your're a genius I bought 2 spears from the son of a soldier stationed in and around S.A during WW2. I was assured they were given to his father by a Zulu he befriended. (It was a parting gift). The problem was the spears were SOCKETTED and not usually attributed to the Zulu. I assumed that this guy was mistaken, and as they were heavy, forged spears I kept them. Now everything makes sense........it looks like I have 2 Askara type spears I will post pics later............got to go to a barbeque..at least while the sun is shining

18th June 2006, 09:17 AM	#7
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Yes we can always learn from each other. I think that a lot of what we know and learn about these articles is a lot like finding pieces to a puzzle. The experience collectors may have alot of pieces, but the new collecter may have found the one missing piece to complete the picture. We need to be open minded and willing to share what ever knowledge we have. In the picture I posted above I think there may clues to the origination of the Spears. The ornateness of the Zande spear makes it fairly easy to identify. The less flamboyant South or East African Spears in my picture are a little more difficult. I am sure there are clues in the photo. Shape, size, material, construction methods, and hafting must be some sort of indicator. I wonder also if those same features might even identify maker or source. The tang mount is something that appears to me to be associated with South African spears. I kind of believe that the top blade is some sort of machine made blade, made in quantity for bartering with the local population for whatever commodity they might have to trade. Thoughts? Was that a practice in Africa?