Can Anyone Help ID this Keris ?

Federico · 28th January 2005, 11:53 PM

Hello BluErf...because I am blanking on a good way to explain it, compare the spacing of the luks of Boswego's kris to the kris in these pictures. Particularly the top kris is the newest. As you can see, as time progresses the compression of luk spacing becomes much tighter, with some more modern kris, particularly after 1900 having extreme numbers of tightly spaced luks.

Rick · 29th January 2005, 12:15 AM

As opposed to :

BluErf · 29th January 2005, 12:57 AM

Ah, a few pictures say a few thousand words.

Thanks Fredrico and Rick.

But just an observation -- as the number of luks increases, the wavelength would have to decrease. It must, or the blade will have to lengthen, which is not always practical. So are we also talking about newer blades having more luks?

In keris world, there is this belief that the more number of luks a keris has, the more powerful or exalted it is. I read somewhere about this warrior 'threatening' asked another person if he should unsheath his keris which has 47 luks -- which would lead to bloodshed. (How the empu manage to squeeze that many luks into a 13-15 inch blade is a complete mystery to me).

So as time goes by, "luk inflation" takes place as people want krises with more and more luks. That may contribute to the reduction in spacing between the luks, maybe? Just thinking...

Btw, in keris world, there is also this phenomena of "luk inflation", and not only that, the amplitude of luk increases. i.e. the older pieces have more gentle undulating luks, the newer ones have more roundish, exaggerated luks. Where the luks are many (>17), the luks almost look triangle-lish.

Rick · 29th January 2005, 01:15 AM

Back to the piece at hand .
I'm a little suspicious about these seemingly archaic blades that have such a shallow and rudimentary sogokan , pecetan and janur ( using Frey's Indo terms ) .

Compare the pictures hosted by Andrew with the other archaic Kris posted by myself .

I've always wondered about this .

Boswego · 29th January 2005, 01:17 AM

Thanks for all the great knowledge and feedback.So from what I gather this is a Phillipine Moro Kris -poss a pre-19th Cent piece from the Marano Tribe/Province. What,generally,were these types of shortswords used for,and could I possibly locate a correct scabbard for it ?
(I'm a woodworker,and w/the correct native materials could fabricate one providing I had accurate ethnographic photos/measurements).

Andrew · 29th January 2005, 01:57 AM

Boswego, the Moro kris is a fighting weapon.

Could someone post up some scabbard pix for us to look at?

nechesh · 29th January 2005, 04:27 AM

Rick! How many times do i have to warn you not to post that gorgeous kris anymore!

drool, drool,drool, drool

Federico · 29th January 2005, 05:34 AM

Rick, Boswego's kris, and the middle kris in my pic are not true archaic style such as yours, hence the difference. They represent a mid-point between the Archaic, and the late 19th/early20th groups. Angle of the Gangya is 45 degrees, blades are larger, dapur more modern (hmm hard to describe wish I was able to post more pics), as you noted the arrowhead region is shallower. At least thats how I like to think about it. 3 identifiable ages of Moro kris, pre-1930. Archaic (such as yours), mid-point (Boswego's and the middle kris in my group), and 19th/early20th century (the vast majority of Kris we discuss here). Anyways, along with Nechesh, I must admit everytime you post that kris of yours I need a mop to clean up all the drool

BluErf. Exactly and kinda.

The story Ive always been told, was that older kris had larger deeper luks. As kris start to get larger, the luks shallow out and start becoming tighter in placement (Mindanao kris tending to have shallower luks that Sulu kris). Soooo...the idea that luk inflation played into this phenomena does sound very plausible. Another factor could be the introduction of greater amounts and higher quality steel in later periods (Spanish rails, US wagon springs, etc... in later periods vs. Chinese Iron pots, British wrought iron balls, etc... in earlier), perhaps made a less intensive and more maleable working material. What Ive always been told, while a kris with a high luk count may have more power, only those individuals with great personal power would be eligible to wield them, on the supernatural as well as practical level. Lotsa luks, supposedly harder to cut with (I dunno Ive always had fun manipulating my higher luk kris, but then again Ive never had to manipulate through actual intended mediums). Hmm...I have the feeling I went off on a tangent, and didnt actually make a good response. I apologize if Im coming from way out in left field.

28th January 2005, 11:53 PM	#1
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello BluErf...because I am blanking on a good way to explain it, compare the spacing of the luks of Boswego's kris to the kris in these pictures. Particularly the top kris is the newest. As you can see, as time progresses the compression of luk spacing becomes much tighter, with some more modern kris, particularly after 1900 having extreme numbers of tightly spaced luks. Attached Images

29th January 2005, 12:15 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	As opposed to :

29th January 2005, 12:57 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ah, a few pictures say a few thousand words. Thanks Fredrico and Rick. But just an observation -- as the number of luks increases, the wavelength would have to decrease. It must, or the blade will have to lengthen, which is not always practical. So are we also talking about newer blades having more luks? In keris world, there is this belief that the more number of luks a keris has, the more powerful or exalted it is. I read somewhere about this warrior 'threatening' asked another person if he should unsheath his keris which has 47 luks -- which would lead to bloodshed. (How the empu manage to squeeze that many luks into a 13-15 inch blade is a complete mystery to me). So as time goes by, "luk inflation" takes place as people want krises with more and more luks. That may contribute to the reduction in spacing between the luks, maybe? Just thinking... Btw, in keris world, there is also this phenomena of "luk inflation", and not only that, the amplitude of luk increases. i.e. the older pieces have more gentle undulating luks, the newer ones have more roundish, exaggerated luks. Where the luks are many (>17), the luks almost look triangle-lish.

29th January 2005, 01:15 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Back to the piece at hand . I'm a little suspicious about these seemingly archaic blades that have such a shallow and rudimentary sogokan , pecetan and janur ( using Frey's Indo terms ) . Compare the pictures hosted by Andrew with the other archaic Kris posted by myself . I've always wondered about this .

29th January 2005, 01:17 AM	#5
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Thanks for all the great knowledge and feedback.So from what I gather this is a Phillipine Moro Kris -poss a pre-19th Cent piece from the Marano Tribe/Province. What,generally,were these types of shortswords used for,and could I possibly locate a correct scabbard for it ? (I'm a woodworker,and w/the correct native materials could fabricate one providing I had accurate ethnographic photos/measurements).

29th January 2005, 01:57 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Boswego, the Moro kris is a fighting weapon. Could someone post up some scabbard pix for us to look at?

29th January 2005, 04:27 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Rick! How many times do i have to warn you not to post that gorgeous kris anymore! drool, drool,drool, drool

29th January 2005, 05:34 AM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Rick, Boswego's kris, and the middle kris in my pic are not true archaic style such as yours, hence the difference. They represent a mid-point between the Archaic, and the late 19th/early20th groups. Angle of the Gangya is 45 degrees, blades are larger, dapur more modern (hmm hard to describe wish I was able to post more pics), as you noted the arrowhead region is shallower. At least thats how I like to think about it. 3 identifiable ages of Moro kris, pre-1930. Archaic (such as yours), mid-point (Boswego's and the middle kris in my group), and 19th/early20th century (the vast majority of Kris we discuss here). Anyways, along with Nechesh, I must admit everytime you post that kris of yours I need a mop to clean up all the drool BluErf. Exactly and kinda. The story Ive always been told, was that older kris had larger deeper luks. As kris start to get larger, the luks shallow out and start becoming tighter in placement (Mindanao kris tending to have shallower luks that Sulu kris). Soooo...the idea that luk inflation played into this phenomena does sound very plausible. Another factor could be the introduction of greater amounts and higher quality steel in later periods (Spanish rails, US wagon springs, etc... in later periods vs. Chinese Iron pots, British wrought iron balls, etc... in earlier), perhaps made a less intensive and more maleable working material. What Ive always been told, while a kris with a high luk count may have more power, only those individuals with great personal power would be eligible to wield them, on the supernatural as well as practical level. Lotsa luks, supposedly harder to cut with (I dunno Ive always had fun manipulating my higher luk kris, but then again Ive never had to manipulate through actual intended mediums). Hmm...I have the feeling I went off on a tangent, and didnt actually make a good response. I apologize if Im coming from way out in left field.