Valley of the Shadow of Death

[kronckew]

I've read somewhere that many Brits still had the older 1821 pipe back blades, not terribly good cutters, and too flexible to thrust through Russian greatcoats.


The photographer of the road likely replaced the cannon balls in the road for effect, after the fact. That was a busy supply road and the Supply corps would have pushed them off to the sides.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

I've read somewhere that many Brits still had the older 1821 pipe back blades, not terribly good cutters, and too flexible to thrust through Russian greatcoats.


The photographer of the road likely replaced the cannon balls in the road for effect, after the fact. That was a busy supply road and the Supply corps would have pushed them off to the sides.

Thank you Wayne! It does seem there was a variance in the equipment of the different units of course, though the M1821 light cavalry saber was prevalent (along with the M1822 for officers) both three bar hilts.

There was a disruption in the production of the M1821 light cavalry saber from what I understand, and production did not resume fully until 1829. This is why these are often termed M1829. I was not aware that the early models had pipe back blades.

It was not known until recent years (mostly thanks to research by Richard Dellar , "The British Cavalry Sword: Some New Perspectives", 2013) that the M1853 cavalry saber for both light and heavy cavalry was present in some degree at Balaklava.

In later years at survivors reunions etc. it seems there were cases of M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilt sabers inscribed and presented.

The Russian great coats were a test for virtually all sword blades and that issue was brought up constantly over many of the British swords in the Crimea.

The two photos of the 'valley' by Roger Fenton in 1855 were probably staged as per the practice of photographers in so many cases in war or military images.
All that is known is the actual location of these photos was some distance from the location of the actual charge. as you note, these spent balls would have been moved off the road with the traffic of supply, equipment and forces.
I have thought (though it is not indicated) that this might be the Wozoronoff Road, which if the case, was near several of the British redoubts. It does seem that often with artillery, spent shot was retrieved and used for further action, but unclear how much of the Russian fire was shot, shell and canister.
It is known that both Russian and British had 12 pounder guns.

One thing I wanted to achieve in this thread, is to determine just how many Russian guns there were; the sizes included; and where positioned.

Also, I am curious why there has never been any archaeological study of the Balaklava battle field, and why there are no known (substantiated) relics of the battle from the field. It would be interesting to know if any examples of spent shot or shells were taken as souvenirs. I know Mark Twain visited there in the 1860s and I think found something but cannot locate notes.

[toaster5sqn]

Jim, I believe the 1821 troopers blade was fullered while officers blades may have been pipeback as were infantry officers swords. Or the confusion could come from artillery officers swords which had an infantry blade but the light cavalry 3 bar hilt.

Robert

[Will M]

Jim I've occasionally seen souvenirs from the Crimean War at auction with old engraved plates or painted on. I've seen some horseshoes with silver fittings engraved.
Presentation swords of the Charge of the Light Brigade are the older 1796 pattern LC swords. Of course they could not use the swords they carried being current issue at the time.
I have trooper swords with correct early maker and inspection markings and regimental markings and would most likely have participated in the charges. I believe that is as close as one can get.

[Jim McDougall]

Robert and Will, thank you very much. After checking further in copies of "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912" (Richard Dellar, 2013) and "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1985) I can recall some of the particulars on these light cavalry swords.

The M1821 light cavalry troopers saber indeed had a new type blade for both cut and thrust which was not with pipe back, while in many cases officers swords did have them. The production of these m1821 swords began in 1823, with about 6000 done by 1825. While there were some complaints about them by 1827, it was mostly about being 'too light' but the scabbards were most of the issue. It seems these complaints were finally set aside and the swords remained in use until the introduction of the M1853 (for both light and heavy cavalry troopers).

In these transitional times there surely was confusion on designations etc.

Richard Dellar discusses the 'Balaclava presentation swords' in a chapter of his book, and three of these swords which are all M1796 light cavalry sabers which all have oval escutcheons with "BALACLAVA OCTOBER25, 1854"
There are regimental markings on the guard bottom, two for 17th Lancers, one for 4th Hussars (4th Light Dragoons at time of charge).
It is believed these were likely issued by the Balaclava Commemoration Society, which was begin in 1875.

The unit markings it seems were intended to align with those of the men these were presented to, but do not seem purported to have been carried in the charge.

I agree with Will, swords with proper unit markings and other markings which set in correct period can possibly have been in the charge, but no way to prove without proper provenance.

In Dellar (op.cit. p.120; 13.6, 13.7) a M1821 light cavalry saber is shown as by Charles Reeves & Co. of Birmingham, with notation of 'Reeves hilt' . It says this form is believed to have started in 1829, which is about the time some of the consternation on these swords was taking place, partly noting the hilts were of concern. I have always wondered what the number 111 was for.
It is tempting to think perhaps numbering in test examples but no record of such tests are recorded, and these remained in service until arrival of the M1853.
Interestingly Reeves held the patent for the 'sandwich' application of the new grips to tang of the new M1853 sabers. It has been noted that some of the first examples of these had blades from Solingen by the maker Kirschbaum, as in this example to supply to troops departing for Crimea (op. cit. Dellar, p.136, pl.15.9 showing knights head mark).
Both of these types were on the field at Balaclava.

[Will M]

An 1821p HC 4th DG sword

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Will! excellent example, especially with regiment markings.
These heavy cavalry versions of the 1821 swords are one of the tougher patterns to find, as I recall when I was collecting these back in the 70s.
It seems many of these ended up being repurposed into practice swords with rebated blades, and I think many in stores were lost in a fire in the Tower.

On the 25th, prior to the Light Brigade action, the Heavy Brigade was involved in action at Balaclava in quite a successful, as well as incredible battle against huge odds vs. the Russian army. With the Light Brigade advance into the North Valley the Heavy Brigade followed for a distance, but as the Light Brigade was decimated by the murderous fire from all sides, they were held back so as not to be lost as well.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Will M

An 1821p HC 4th DG sword

I had missed commenting on this Will,
This is amazing to see one of these with these markings! which certainly suggests one of the swords at Balaclava. The 4th Dragoon Guards were of course part of the Heavy Brigade, whose clash with up to 3000 Russians with their number of 600+ on the morning of October 25, 1854 was nothing short of remarkable.
In "Nolan of Balaclava" H. Moyse-Bartlett (1971, p.212) it is noted that "..among such tightly packed horsemen, the sword was difficult to wield.The Russian weapons were blunter than the English".

In "The Crimean War" (R.L.V.French-Blake, 1972, p.77) "..,the redcoats hacked their way through the grey enemy masses until the Russian force began to sway and melt".

These seem contrasting in the view toward the use of the sword, with suggestions of the British swords being blunt. Most other accounts note extremely effective results with British saber cuts in this action.

It is interesting to note the disciplined training of the British troopers in this account from a wounded Heavy Brigade dragoon, "...I had just cut five (a body cut) at a Russian, and the damned fool never guarded at all, but hit me on the head".
This was recounted by Sir Evelyn Wood regarding the formal style of sword fighting taught to British cavalrymen. A man would stab or slash first, then return the sword to a guarding position to protect against his enemys return blow. Each of the prescribed cuts or slashes was designated by a number.

From "Death or Glory" (Robert Edgerton, 1999, p.223) citing Sir Evelyn Wood, "The Crimea in 1854 and 1894", 1895.

It is amazing to think of the descriptions of this action with the Heavy cavalry literally disappearing into the sea of grey coats, then to see them all disperse away from them. Had this combat been properly supported by the Light Brigade at the time, the outcome at Balaclava would have been quite different.