New Kilij: need help

ariel · 16th June 2006, 01:42 PM

More pics.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th June 2006, 03:28 PM

Ariel,

I can only answer a few of your questions. I cannot read the inscritions on the scabbard, too vague. The scabbard brass seems like a recent, low quality Syrian job, unlike the blade and hilt. As for the suspension, that doesnt look arabian at all, arabian tassles are very long, and have a very complex attachment which allows the sword to be slung comfortably over the shoulder. These require two seperate rings. Unlike this double ring. The brass strip looks like it was applied to secure the wood somehow, and strengthen it.

Very nice piece Ariel, I can provide an old pic (1933) with a bedouin man wearing one of these swords. I wonder if these swords were made in Damascus, or Istanbul or somewhere else. We know that the slim blade kilics were made in both cities, but what about these ones.

ariel · 16th June 2006, 04:04 PM

Ain't no modern or even recent Damascus bazaar job!
Believe me, it is really old.
I am not talking about a tassel: those could be attached and removed at will and prove nothing.Ottoman Turks carried their swords hanging on the side and used 2 rings on the same side of the scabbard. This one has 2 rings on the opposite sides of the same fitting: baldric is the only way to explain. This fitting is a later addition: my guess the original Turkish arrangement was replaced with the "Arabian" one. At the same time it shows that the restof the brasswork is much older and better made.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th June 2006, 04:55 PM

This one certainly looks old, but with newer elements such as the thing that fixes the rings to the scabbard, is clearly newer than the other brass fittings. The reason I say this is because as of late, antiques dealers in damascus are increasingly meddling with any old piece they obtain, trying to restore it, and ending with a completely new scabbard or hilt and destroying the older valuable one. As for the arrangement of the rings, again, this is not an arabian arrangement, this is a typical arab arrangement from your own collection:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=frog

katana · 17th June 2006, 04:58 PM

Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells

As you know I have no knowledge of these types of swords, but I do like it....not so keen on the scabbard though

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2006, 05:11 PM

It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

S.Al-Anizi · 17th June 2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

By recent, I actually meant late 20th century, regarding the brass fittings on the scabbard, however, I cant, and no one can, be sure of their date, they could be very old. Im not assuring anything here, most of this is speculation.

The reason I say this is because Ive seen, and owned a couple of newly made syrian kilijs with the same kind of thin brasswork, locally called 'sabk', with the same discolouration and oxidisation as that on Ariels sword scabbard. It could be however, that this is a continuation of a tradition. The blade and hilt however, seem to be much older, and of excellent quality.

Yannis · 17th June 2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells

Well, talking about baldrics, there is an anecdote. During the Greek revolution against Ottoman rule (1821-1829) the fashion about hanging the kilij had change, from the belt to the shoulder (with baldric). As it happens in all fashions the older rebels were more conservative and used the belt. In a meeting they were talking about swords and an old man, to tease a younger that was very proud about his blade, he said:
“Why do you carry this bell around?”

So, Ariel, you are not the first

Seriously now, I envy this sword

ariel · 28th June 2006, 12:41 PM

This one just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Remarkably similar to mine. The seller sent me pics: same materials, similar ornaments and same suspension system.

16th June 2006, 01:42 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	More pics. Attached Images

16th June 2006, 03:28 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Ariel, I can only answer a few of your questions. I cannot read the inscritions on the scabbard, too vague. The scabbard brass seems like a recent, low quality Syrian job, unlike the blade and hilt. As for the suspension, that doesnt look arabian at all, arabian tassles are very long, and have a very complex attachment which allows the sword to be slung comfortably over the shoulder. These require two seperate rings. Unlike this double ring. The brass strip looks like it was applied to secure the wood somehow, and strengthen it. Very nice piece Ariel, I can provide an old pic (1933) with a bedouin man wearing one of these swords. I wonder if these swords were made in Damascus, or Istanbul or somewhere else. We know that the slim blade kilics were made in both cities, but what about these ones.

16th June 2006, 04:04 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ain't no modern or even recent Damascus bazaar job! Believe me, it is really old. I am not talking about a tassel: those could be attached and removed at will and prove nothing.Ottoman Turks carried their swords hanging on the side and used 2 rings on the same side of the scabbard. This one has 2 rings on the opposite sides of the same fitting: baldric is the only way to explain. This fitting is a later addition: my guess the original Turkish arrangement was replaced with the "Arabian" one. At the same time it shows that the restof the brasswork is much older and better made.

16th June 2006, 04:55 PM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	This one certainly looks old, but with newer elements such as the thing that fixes the rings to the scabbard, is clearly newer than the other brass fittings. The reason I say this is because as of late, antiques dealers in damascus are increasingly meddling with any old piece they obtain, trying to restore it, and ending with a completely new scabbard or hilt and destroying the older valuable one. As for the arrangement of the rings, again, this is not an arabian arrangement, this is a typical arab arrangement from your own collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=frog

17th June 2006, 04:58 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Ariel, if you want to obtain musical notes from tapping metal... may I suggest bells As you know I have no knowledge of these types of swords, but I do like it....not so keen on the scabbard though

17th June 2006, 05:11 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	It all depends on what S.Al-Anizi means by recent. Some people would call the late 19th century recent. I would say judging by the remains of gilding on the scabbard, it is from around the turn of the 19th century. The blade is probably a lot earlier. To me the blade and handle look made to a higher standard but the scabbard has definitely been made for this sword. I know nothing of these really

28th June 2006, 12:41 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This one just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Remarkably similar to mine. The seller sent me pics: same materials, similar ornaments and same suspension system.