Archaic kris for comment

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Arsenic trioxide used in a traditional rub-on fashion works as do a number of more available modern etchants.

Correct me if i am wrong here, but from my understanding arsenic trioxide isn't an etchant at all. It's function when used in the warangan mixture to stain a keris is that it turns iron and steel black while not effecting nickelous material in the pamor. That is how it raises the pamor pattern. It is the acid in the lime juice part of the mixture that acts as a gentle etchant.
I don't really know what causes the lines to appear in a twist core Moro kris, but if it is not the inclusion of nickel in the mix i don't think arsenic would be an effective way to raise the appearance of the lines in the twist.

[JBG163]

But an etchant would bring out the quench. And you would see a difference between the quenched zone and the "unquenched" one

[Rick]

An xray might be interesting to see. Know anyone who works in a hospital or Dentist's office?

[kai]

Hello Rick,

An xray might be interesting to see. Know anyone who works in a hospital or Dentist's office?

From the pamor extending across the line, it seems safe to assume that we don't see any differences on a macroscopical level here. Thus, I don't think x-ray will be of any help here.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Julien,

But an etchant would bring out the quench. And you would see a difference between the quenched zone and the "unquenched" one

Yes, any difference in final composition (steel alloy, heat treatments, etc.) will show up by etching/staining.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

Correct me if i am wrong here, but from my understanding arsenic trioxide isn't an etchant at all. It's function when used in the warangan mixture to stain a keris is that it turns iron and steel black while not effecting nickelous material in the pamor. That is how it raises the pamor pattern. It is the acid in the lime juice part of the mixture that acts as a gentle etchant.

Yes, I was referring to the traditional mixture of arsenic with lime juice. And, for brevity, I wasn't differentiating between etching and staining.

Any etching/staining result will not only be affected by the steel alloys (possibly containing different amounts of nickel, phosphorous, etc.) but as well from differences in heat treatment, especially quenching.

I don't really know what causes the lines to appear in a twist core Moro kris, but if it is not the inclusion of nickel in the mix i don't think arsenic would be an effective way to raise the appearance of the lines in the twist.

In most cases, Moro "twistcore" blades will have been crafted from layering mild steel and another steel with noticeable nickel content (probably from Luwu?), indeed.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello David,


Yes, I was referring to the traditional mixture of arsenic with lime juice. And, for brevity, I wasn't differentiating between etching and staining.

Any etching/staining result will not only be affected by the steel alloys (possibly containing different amounts of nickel, phosphorous, etc.) but as well from differences in heat treatment, especially quenching.



In most cases, Moro "twistcore" blades will have been crafted from layering mild steel and another steel with noticeable nickel content (probably from Luwu?), indeed.

Regards,
Kai

Well Kai, i think you really have to differentiate between etching and staining because they are not the same thing at all. Actually i don't think all that much etching takes place during the staining process with warangan anyway. Most of the etching with keris takes place during the pre-staining "cleaning" processes when either fruit acids or coconut water are used to remove rust and bring the blade to "whitened" condition.
I was not arguing that there is not nickel in the steel of this archaic Moro blade. But by my understanding the patterns created here are not done by the same process that is used to create keris with pamor. There is not pamor used in this archaic blade as far as i know. There may very well be some nickel content in some of the iron used though. But frankly i don't know. I am curious to know how you know this though. Can you cite a source for this information?

[kai]

Hello David,

Apologies for not responding earlier!

Well Kai, i think you really have to differentiate between etching and staining because they are not the same thing at all.

In most cases of intentionally treating pattern-welded pieces, both is happening during a single process like two sides of the same coin.

Pretty much all stains contain an acid which etches the surface and some resulting oxidation products result in discoloration of the bare metal.

Actually i don't think all that much etching takes place during the staining process with warangan anyway. Most of the etching with keris takes place during the pre-staining "cleaning" processes when either fruit acids or coconut water are used to remove rust and bring the blade to "whitened" condition.

Yes, the whitening step is responsible for most of the erosion, especially with the rub-in method. (The soaking method tends to remove more metal.)

However, the lime juice in the warangan mix provides organic acids resulting in an oxidation process while the arsenic reacts resulting in the dark color. Thus, we still have both processes working hand in hand (since the lime juice is necessary to get a correct stain).

I was not arguing that there is not nickel in the steel of this archaic Moro blade. But by my understanding the patterns created here are not done by the same process that is used to create keris with pamor.

Pamor can result from any kind of laminations, even if the contrast happens to be low. Also in Indonesian keris, the use of metal from different ores/treatments results in obvious (if often more subdued) laminations, especially with many old pieces. If the ores don't have increased nickel content, it may just as well be a higher phosphorus content or other trace element(s) in the alloy affecting their specific reaction characteristics.

There is not pamor used in this archaic blade as far as i know.

This example clearly exhibits typical pamor (easily comparable due to the smooth surface) of the same twisted type as seen on keris Jawa (or Lombok/Bali). Based on the thin pamor layers with very light color, I'm pretty confident that a XRF analysis will show an elevated percentage of nickel in this blade, indeed.

There may very well be some nickel content in some of the iron used though. But frankly i don't know. I am curious to know how you know this though. Can you cite a source for this information?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

At this stage, I don't have really started obtaining detailed measurements yet (quite tricky due to the small exposed surfaces, especially with more complex pattern-welded blades).

Aside from originating from the same roots, also all observed features resulting from blade forging and quenching as well as the very comparable reaction of pamor layers to etchant/stains, supports the hypothesis that at least the basic keris/kris smithing methods seem to be very similar all across the archipelago.

Regards,
Kai