Walloon, not really?

[werecow]

As far as I know Walloon are the French speaking people of Belgium. Not sure why this type of sword is named after them. Maybe because they live with the Flemish/Dutch people often associated with this sword? Maybe Walloon is the French term for the sword?

Nobody in Sweden knows why the Germans sometimes call it Schwedendegen/Schwedensäbel (Swedish sword/sabre). It seems to be a German term dating back to the 30-year war. These swords were never common in Sweden.

This is not science, but collecting individually handcrafted arms from the 17thC. Hence I think it’s futile to attempt to find scientific definitions to these items. As long as we understand each other when we mention a term then that’s satisfactory at a basic level.

I know immediately what people mean when they mention a Walloon sword. But given the fact that these swords were commonly used all over Europe I would try to avoid using a narrow geographic place to name this sword. I favour calling it a Felddegen or campaign sword.

Yeah, I would probably go with felddegen or haudegen.

On a side note, the blade on the bottom one does look almost exactly like the blade on the Walloon sword I got recently (except for the inscription, and minus some patina). So definitely close cousins! }|:oP Picture attached for reference.

As to why Walloons are named that; I've read in the past that it's just a 19th century collectors term... but I don't know whether that is true or not.
Alternatively I'd have hypothesized that they got the name from the French during their war against the Dutch (after which the French then made it into their first standardized model). The first forces they would've encountered geographically would have been the Walloons. But that is just musing and speculation on my part.

And of course the felddegens look quite similar (thumb ring, straight double edged cut and thrust blade, thrust plates on the guard, often pierced, upturned quillon bulb, roughly similar period).

[midelburgo]

These are what the Dutch Legermuseum describe as waalse degen:

https://collectie.nmm.nl/nl/collectie/?q=waalse+degen

And these under houwdegen.

https://collectie.nmm.nl/nl/collectie/?q=houwdegen

[cornelistromp]

alternative view:
this type is called in Dutch Houwdegen = broadsword for the footsoldier/infantry and must be dated much later between 1675-1725.

epee-wallone/walloon sword is a different type of sword as previous post #5 , is the most famous Dutch sword and a broadsword for the cavalry, blades were exported from Solingen to Amsterdam where local made hilts were mounted and local made scabbards were added , exported in masses and used in most western European armies. 1645-1675

the name "sword from Wallonia" comes from the french who captured large quantities of these swords during their campaign in 1672/73 in the southern Netherlands and subsequently introduced the sword in the french army under epee wallone.

CF Puype, van Maurits naar Munster /JP puype p 92-95 p-114

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Whilst I intend to base my articel on the four swords already in my collection I am also hoping to include other examples as they come to light.

At this stage the references I am using are:
BEZDEK Richard H German Swords and Sword Makers Pp 187
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 9 9 (175)
Cleveland Museum of Art Catalogue of Arms and Armour Vol. 4 Pp 66-68 Plate 234
KUPPELMAYR Waffen-Sammlung
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Page 228 pictures 173, 174, 175, 176, 177
George Neumann, Swords & Blades of the American Revolution, pg.72 #33.
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury pp 53 Plate 64
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 2 Pp 110 Plate 123
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 93 Plate 239
I have on order “The Visser Collection Arms of the Netherlands Vol. I Part 3” its on its way to Australia.

I was wondering if anyone has any other reference recommendations and/or any research material they would be prepared to share. Naturally I would credit them as the source.

In particular I am looking for:
• period paintings of soldiers with these swords
• the identity of the nations that used them, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, Bavaria etc
• were they manufactured in Germany or just the blades with hilts made locally?
• were they for cavalry or infantry or both.
• Where did they originate etc


Every source I check tells a different story thus far. Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Hi Cathey,

I strongly discourage you from identifying these type of swords as Schwedendegen or Schwedensäbel since this means Swedish sword and sabre (not Swiss!). People from non-European continents often mix up Sweden and Switzerland which have some similarities in character but are very different countries in Europe.

As I mentioned in post #2 already: “Nobody in Sweden knows why the Germans sometimes call it Schwedendegen/Schwedensäbel (Swedish sword/sabre). It seems to be a German term dating back to the 30-year war. These swords were never common in Sweden.”

[Cathey]

Hi Vitrix,

As you can see from my previous posts I now refer to these as Campaign swords. I used the term Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre) in the header of this post as it has been used on other sites and I hoped it might draw in more information.

Thank you for response, it is useful to note that these swords were not common in Sweden.

I am actaully wondering if I should perhaps start an entirely new thread in the hope of illiciting more information. These are proving very difficult to research with any degredd of confidence.

Cheers Cathey

[Hotspur]

I have found the thread to be very informative and have restrained my own thoughts due to real ignorance of the scope in time we are looking at.

The more I read of the descriptive terms, it seems like a timeline needs to be included to categorize the specific forms. Walloons best regarding the late century infantry swords.

My one example may be later 17th century, with the fully developed inboard plate. Also a plain broad hewing blade of cavalry length.

Some descriptions get parsed to death as to literal meanings, so that just adds more to simply calling everything a walloon (when they are not).

Thanks for this thread!

GC

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I am endeavouring to write an Article about (what I am now calling) European Campaign swords for the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. The swords I am referring to are the four I have posted here that now appear to be frequestly referred to as Schwedendegen (Swiss Sword) or Schwedensabel (Swiss Sabre). As I have said I had previously described these swords as Walloons and/or Walloon Type, until I secured an actual Dutch Walloon at which time, I knew this was definitely not the correct designation for this group of swords. All of mine appear to have German Blades and I have been using the blade to suggest an age; however, I understand that this is not necessarily accurate as older blades were re-used but hoped it might give me a starting point. At this stage the age of the blades on the four examples I have range from c1610 – c1670 (Approximately).

Whilst I intend to base my articel on the four swords already in my collection I am also hoping to include other examples as they come to light.

At this stage the references I am using are:
BEZDEK Richard H German Swords and Sword Makers Pp 187
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 9 9 (175)
Cleveland Museum of Art Catalogue of Arms and Armour Vol. 4 Pp 66-68 Plate 234
KUPPELMAYR Waffen-Sammlung
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Page 228 pictures 173, 174, 175, 176, 177
George Neumann, Swords & Blades of the American Revolution, pg.72 #33.
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury pp 53 Plate 64
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 2 Pp 110 Plate 123
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 93 Plate 239
I have on order “The Visser Collection Arms of the Netherlands Vol. I Part 3” its on its way to Australia.

I was wondering if anyone has any other reference recommendations and/or any research material they would be prepared to share. Naturally I would credit them as the source.

In particular I am looking for:
• period paintings of soldiers with these swords
• the identity of the nations that used them, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, Bavaria etc
• were they manufactured in Germany or just the blades with hilts made locally?
• were they for cavalry or infantry or both.
• Where did they originate etc


Every source I check tells a different story thus far. Any assistance you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Cathey

Hi Cathy,
Found a painting of Fürst Johann Moritz zu Nassau Siegen with the sword of the defeated potuguese Viceadmiral Antonio d' Andrade.It's painted around 1640 and is now in the mueum of the townhall of Vlanen in the Netherlands.It seems to me that he helds a kind of " Felddegen " in his hand.I took the Photo from a Biographie of Johann Moritz and asked the museum for a better picture, but didn't got answer yet.

[Tordenskiold1721]

It's been my understanding that the term Schwedendegen was slang originating towards the end of the Danish phase of the 30-year war and used during the continuations in the Swedish wars up until the end of the great Northern war as slang term for a sword to be used against the Sweds. As a "degen" for use against the Swedes". There are some literature references for this, but I will have to return with specific references when I am with my library. Until then, it is only my five cent's inputs

https://bruun-rasmussen.dk/m/lots/D6...iod%3Dall_time

The link is to the latest one I bought, of this type.

In old inventory lists they are often referred to as commissioned degen, as they were commissioned and approved for production and issuing holding the commissions specification. Feltedegen is a very broad and general term, that includes various types of swords, if my understanding, based on contemporary literature and inventory lists are correct. I been wrong before and could be wrong again....

The armory at Skokloster and the castle can be seen in this documentary in Swedish with English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRpk4ESKum0&t=15s

[Tordenskiold1721]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

alternative view:
this type is called in Dutch Houwdegen = broadsword for the foot soldier/infantry and must be dated much later between 1675-1725.

I support Jasper's dating for most of the examples shown in this tread, Ca 1670 - 1725 was the period were this type of hilts saw their prime use in Europe. I am adding on some additional observations below.

I do believe that the first types are seen from the 1640's. From where's we see the beginning of a transition period from the munition grade rapier style hilts on foot soldier's side arms. This transition period based on actual types that can be dated seems to be from Ca 1640 - 1660, in central and northern Europe.

I agree the examples discussed here can be referred to using different thermology's. As long as we all understand what we are talking about as suggested by others in this tread.

I believe this type of sword started to be seen from the 1640's. earlier examples has larger knuckles and often flat non pierced guards are also a sign of how to date the earliest types, if my understanding is correct. Other inputs / challenges on dating these types would be interesting and welcome.