Knife for I.D. Chinese? Tibetan? Bhutanese?

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2022, 04:31 PM

Ausjulius,
Again, thank you for elaborating with these important details concerning Bhutan and the circumstances involving these people and in neighboring areas as well as use of these swords. This is exactly what is needed in the study and the understanding of weapons beyond their type,form, category.
Every weapon has its story!
Now I know the story with this one

kronckew · 14th August 2022, 07:08 PM

The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK.

The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense.
19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD,

possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog.

Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while.

Norman McCormick · 15th August 2022, 10:20 AM

Hi Wayne,
Not similar that is mine. I did ignore the auction blurb as with a lot of auction houses it is either fanciful, Spartan or wrong. As you possibly saw it didn’t cost much so I chanced my arm. Some you win some you lose.

My Regards,
Norman.

kronckew · 15th August 2022, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Wayne,
Not similar that is mine. I did ignore the auction blurb as with a lot of auction houses it is either fanciful, Spartan or wrong. As you possibly saw it didn’t cost much so I chanced my arm. Some you win some you lose.

My Regards,
Norman.

OOps! I didn't actually see that auction item, it was stumbled on from another source. I wanted to add another example. I found it on {deleted} where it just showed as auction 'closed' and no details were available. I also buy things via {deleted}.

Auction descriptions are often very fanciful and wrong. I just paid for an Indonesian European-style klewang )posted on the forum here) that had been listed as a middle eastern short sword (along with a Masai seme, they got that one right)!

ausjulius · 15th August 2022, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK.

The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense.
19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD,

possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog.

Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while.

yeah ive seen small knives, large knives and swords all with this handle and guard combinaiton, i just dont know the exact region and ethnic group that uses them. the veriety on these is amazing. id love to travel to these and see all these but i think tis just not a thing the chinese government will let you do.. even in the golden days.. late 1990s to early 2000snds it was hard or impossiable even with a minder to go to many of these parts. these days it would be so hard

werecow · 16th August 2022, 01:58 AM

EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }|<o)

Original post:

I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }|:o.

Norman McCormick · 16th August 2022, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }|<o)

Original post:

I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }|

.

Exactly, it is one and the same.

Regards,
Norman

Jerseyman · 23rd August 2022, 07:37 PM

I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear.

JBG163 · 23rd August 2022, 08:58 PM

Hi Jerseyman,

Honestly only the hilt have a tibetan plateau feeling. Again, blade seems to be from a bayonet (probably pimped with carving), as much as the scabbard. I sadly can't argue about if it's genuine or not. Two members with quite knowledge have opposite opinion.

A good way would be to search in museum. I have searched in several collection without finding anything.

Now my two cents, (not worth more than what it is) : my feelings tell me to avoid that type of things. Even if the aesthetics of the hilt can be appealing, the craft itself, the carving style and deep, etc... feel off for early work. (Again, in my opinion), it would lead me to two possibilities : or it is modern, or it is really late (like late 20th), reusing bayonets blades.

ausjulius · 27th August 2022, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear.

these are made to look like bayonets form british and german rifles use din tibet. i have seen such things form china too.. they probably were made at a high point in the interwar period. they are not bayonets but look like them.
with a huge surge of more modern weapons in these areas such items as bayonets become interesting to locals. these are not made with any parts of a bayonet buy made to imitate them in soem way.
such fashions also occurred in the late 19th century in both west africa and also parts of west africa where you can find belt knives imitating mostly german bayonets i have also see uyghur examples and some from afghanistan. there is probably other parts of the world where such a fashion existed but i cant think of it right now.

Norman McCormick · 15th August 2022, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK.

The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense.
19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD,

possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog.

Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while.

Just to avoid the confusion that appears to be happening. The knife above that kronckew posted is the one I have.

ausjulius · 15th August 2022, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ausjulius,
Again, thank you for elaborating with these important details concerning Bhutan and the circumstances involving these people and in neighboring areas as well as use of these swords. This is exactly what is needed in the study and the understanding of weapons beyond their type,form, category.
Every weapon has its story!
Now I know the story with this one

no worries.
have a look at this image.. https://tibetpolicy.net/discussing-r...nives-weapons/

as knife and sword collectors.. its a sad sad image..
you can find more of thes eimages with lepoard, bear and fox furs, guns, crossbows, swords knives ect being burnt.. some of those piles would be worth a million dollars.. gives you an image of just how common such arms are/were in tibet when compared with the rest of the modern world.
some place on youtube there is a festival attended by local tibetians in triaditional costume and some monks that shows traditional sword and sheild and dagger techniques. it was on youtube in tibetian language. was interesitng, it wasnt a danct but several showing cutting, defending and such techniques with sharp swords.. if i find it ill post it

https://savetibet.org/wp-content/upl...furs_image.jpg

https://savetibet.org/wp-content/upl...ang-Knives.jpg

http://www.ecns.cn/visual/hd/2015/09-02/75464.shtml

14th August 2022, 07:08 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The sword is apparently not unique, one very similar to the one in norman's post #1 was sold at auction not long ago ago in the UK. The auction description, like most, was almost complete nonsense. 19TH CENTURY FAR EAST ASIAN SHORT SWORD, possibly Japanese, with fullered steel blade over a quatrefoil guard, leather and foliate engraved steel grip, 38cm long, with original hardwood mounted scroll and Greek key engraved scabbard with suspension frog. Postscript: Silly Monks, coulda sold all those sharp pointy weapons to us and lived high on the hog for a goodly while. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 14th August 2022 at 10:49 PM.

15th August 2022, 10:20 AM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Wayne, Not similar that is mine. I did ignore the auction blurb as with a lot of auction houses it is either fanciful, Spartan or wrong. As you possibly saw it didn’t cost much so I chanced my arm. Some you win some you lose. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 15th August 2022 at 11:12 AM.

16th August 2022, 01:58 AM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	EDIT: Oops, missed that reply by Norman. No matter, I consider my retrodiction preemptively vindicated. }\|<o) Original post: I'm not entirely convinced they aren't literally the same sword/knife. }\|:o. Attached Images Last edited by werecow; 16th August 2022 at 02:38 AM.

23rd August 2022, 07:37 PM	#8
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Similar Dagger I acquired this item earlier this year. I assumed it was Tibetan Plateau though I couldn't find any images of this exact type. It seems to be stylistically related to Norman's piece, so I thought it worth posting. Unfortunately I don't have the measurements to hand - if I have time to dig it out I'll post them. If anyone has any information on the cultural context, or even better any sources referencing these I would be grateful to hear. Attached Images

14th August 2022, 04:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ausjulius, Again, thank you for elaborating with these important details concerning Bhutan and the circumstances involving these people and in neighboring areas as well as use of these swords. This is exactly what is needed in the study and the understanding of weapons beyond their type,form, category. Every weapon has its story! Now I know the story with this one

23rd August 2022, 08:58 PM	#9
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 208	Hi Jerseyman, Honestly only the hilt have a tibetan plateau feeling. Again, blade seems to be from a bayonet (probably pimped with carving), as much as the scabbard. I sadly can't argue about if it's genuine or not. Two members with quite knowledge have opposite opinion. A good way would be to search in museum. I have searched in several collection without finding anything. Now my two cents, (not worth more than what it is) : my feelings tell me to avoid that type of things. Even if the aesthetics of the hilt can be appealing, the craft itself, the carving style and deep, etc... feel off for early work. (Again, in my opinion), it would lead me to two possibilities : or it is modern, or it is really late (like late 20th), reusing bayonets blades.