Paternosters on blades

[fernando]

Jim, have you tried the "SEARCH" button for PATERNOSTER .



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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, have you tried the "SEARCH" button PATERNOSTER

Duh!! Gee, theres a SEARCH button here???????? Wow!

Actually, I thought perhaps I would throw a topic out to see if possibly a discussion might ensue. Things have been pretty quiet around here, and I thought maybe some of the more recent members might have examples or exposure to same.

Its always interesting to see responses on threads 10 yrs + as if they were still current, but an occasional fresh thread on topics that indeed have been around a 'few' years (Im old enough to remember . seems warranted, at least in my thoughts.

[Jim McDougall]

So I tried the SEARCH button under PATERNOSTER, and there were five threads which had the term within the text. In all cases, the term was used in a comparative sense, for example Dutch swords having a petaled floral device which was compared to a paternoster. There were of course no examples showing these pierced or impressed dots on blades on the forum.

In trying to search on Google, the dearth of information is also notable, and the term paternoster is noted in its religious connotation or as a simile using the term. I did find the writer in 1905, as well as Burton 1885 who barely mention the term or device. The term itself has been seen in many references, auction catalogs over the years , passim, however I would be hard pressed to locate these descriptions.

I just find these curiosities and anomalies in the history of the sword intriguing, and apologies if these queries are deemed uninteresting or irrelevant.

[werecow]

There's an old discussion on myarmoury about what sounds like the same topic and so may be of interest, but nothing close to pierced blades there either. The "lines and dots" features shown in that thread are far more subtle and will no doubt be familiar to most people posting here, e.g.:


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by werecow

There's an old discussion on myarmoury about what sounds like the same topic and so may be of interest, but nothing close to pierced blades there either. The "lines and dots" features shown in that thread are far more subtle and will no doubt be familiar to most people posting here, e.g.:

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was hoping for, some sort of indication of other research into this perplexing question. As can be seen in the discussion (thank you for the link), there were questions toward the motif and decoration on sword blades which lent to perhaps religious invocations. It seems the suggestions of 'rosarial' connection are observed and only at one point is the term 'paternoster' mentioned as an alternative description.

In this 2011 discussion, it reveals what I had been suggesting, that the term paternoster does not seem to have been well known with reference to sword blade features.

I think Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1884) was one of my earliest books as I began this lifelong odyssey in studying the sword, many years ago (60s).
It was here that I first encountered the term, as he described unusual blade features, on p.136:
"...another rare form was the PATERNOSTER blade, fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his vain repetitions even in the dark".

The other reference I found was:
"Inscribed Mottos etc. on Arms and Armor" by Robert Brydell
Glasgow Archaeological Society, Vol.5 #1 (1905) pp.1-22.
" ...in the recent Glasgow exhibition there was an example of what are sometimes called 'paternoster' swords, having crosses perforated in the blade, the supposed purpose of which was to enable the bearer to count his paternosters by running his finger along the groove containing them. It is very doubtful if such swords would ever be relied upon as fighting weapons as the perforation weakens the blade where strength is most required. More frequently such swords had paternoster marks indicated by transverse and vertical rows of small circular hollows punched on the surfaces of the blade near the handle".

As this was 1903-1905, and Burton had written in the 1880s, it would seem that there was some knowledge or awareness of blades of this kind and a term to describe the feature was 'paternoster'. Here I would point out that the use of inscriptions, invocations, acrostics coding phrases etc. and even the curious sigils known as anchors are not the same as 'paternosters' which are entirely holes or depressions arranged in certain configurations.

I have seen rapiers and small swords with blades having a number of holes in the blade, but the only suggestions seem to have to do with 'lightening' the blade.

Thank you again for responding on this! and for the very pertinent discussion aligned with this topic. Hopefully the information we have shared here might bring in other examples to compile on this apparently esoteric type of blade.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So I tried the SEARCH button under PATERNOSTER, and there were five threads which had the term within the text. In all cases, the term was used in a comparative sense, for example Dutch swords having a petaled floral device which was compared to a paternoster. There were of course no examples showing these pierced or impressed dots on blades on the forum.

In trying to search on Google, the dearth of information is also notable, and the term paternoster is noted in its religious connotation or as a simile using the term. I did find the writer in 1905, as well as Burton 1885 who barely mention the term or device. The term itself has been seen in many references, auction catalogs over the years , passim, however I would be hard pressed to locate these descriptions.

I just find these curiosities and anomalies in the history of the sword intriguing, and apologies if these queries are deemed uninteresting or irrelevant.

Jim, you are right in that this is a tricky subject, as it appears conotated in more than one area. Yet in the threads shown in the SEARCH button, besides the petal device engraved in Dutch and Portuguese blades, there is another one with continuous 'elliptical depressions' on the (my) Dutch silver sword blade, which Jasper assumes as being named paternoster.
The amplitude of the paternoster (rosary) covers since lift (elevator) systems
"The name paternoster (Our Father in Latin) was originally used for the device because the elevator was shaped like a loop and therefore similar to the shape of the rosary".

... up to water elevation mechanisms.


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[Jim McDougall]

It seems those ellipses you mention were deemed 'paternoster' by Jasper as they appeared to answer similar calling to the circular depressions arranged on the so called 'paternoster' blades. Whether these were used in the manner described by Burton (1884) or Brydell (1905) remains to be seen.

On Dutch blades, I recall these occurring often, but not ever seeing them described as 'paternoster'. As you have illustrated, the paternoster term seems to be a known simile for a number of things that bring to mind the Rosary.

On Dutch swords there is often a petaled feature on the quillon which is colloquially referred to as 'kleeblatt' (clover) much in the same manner. I have always regarded this description as referring to the quatrefoil shape often seen in ecclesiastic architecture, again with religious motif being significant in the decoration of arms.

Again, my hopes are to find illustrations of sword blades with the deliberate arrangement of dots on the blade which would respond to the descriptions of the writers I have mentioned.

[Jim McDougall]

Much of the 'lore' of weapons, particularly of course, the sword, is found in the creatively written and often highly embellished works of literature. Without elaborating, here is an example which may apply to our discussion:

"...lay thy hand upon the cross of the sword, say a paternoster over in thy heart, and thou shalt be protected from the mischief of this inquisition".
"Abdalla the Moor and the Spanish Knight: A Romance
of Mexico" (1839, p.34)
Robert Montgomery Bird 1806-1854)
The tale is set in the early 16th century.

We may wonder if this passage, though not describing the same dots or holes but the act of reciting a paternoster on a sword, might have been read or somehow known by Burton and transmitted in his book in 1884. Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword...

Funny thing, i have just read a blogger out there precisely suggesting that, concerning this subject, Burton was certainly giving wings to his imagination.

I'm inclined to think that Burton ran across this somewhere and invented an explanation to suit himself, though it's possible that the blade could have even been called a "Paternoster blade" before he saw it. A number of things are called "paternoster" because they're seen as analagous to beads on a string, and certainly the illustration shows rows of dots. To a Victorian observer, it may have seemed likely that the word implied some real connection with prayer.
(Courtesy Chris Laning)

On the other hand, i would accept that depressions of a determined type on a sword blade may be regarded by some as paternoster or rosary, just like many other implements bear the same name, though not with an intrinsic religious implication; only by the looks of it.