The things we cannot see

[David]

Interesting conversations so far.
At this point i would just like to interject that the concept of the seen and unseen worlds is not isolated to a relatively small area in South East Asia. It is a universal concept. The names change, and certain entities can be specific to various locations, but the concepts remain the same. It's just another example of the "Name Game". Perhaps the reason that many Westerners have difficulty grasping these concepts is because of the intense indoctrination of Abrahamic religions, specifically Christianity, in Western cultures. In the United States, where i grew up, Christianity became so dominate that many people have come to believe we were always an intentional Christian nation. Anything outside those beliefs were to be considered foreign and shunned. Though a deeper investigation of these Abrahamic religions can still find a mystical current that lies beneath. It has simply been surpassed for centuries as a means to control the population. I have spent many years investigating and studying various pagan currents such Wicca and traditional Western witchcraft as well as diving deeply into the ceremonial lodge magick that arose in Europe in the 18th-19th centuries. And through my interest in drumming i have studied quite a bit about Haitian Vodoun and the African diaspora practices where i have found some remarkable parallels there to the beliefs to be found in various Indonesian cultures. Again, these concepts are universal. We are one human species living on our one and only planet. The spirits change names, many are may be specific to the exacting environments where people have interacted with them, but ultimately it is all one and the same.
This is all to say that despite what i have heard some people say, i do not believe that one must be raised in Indonesia or spend a great deal of time there to grasp these concepts of the seen and unseen world. This "magick" exists all around the world if we open ourselves up to it and though the specifics may vary the basic operations are pretty much the same. To use a computer analogy, the software changes, but the hard drive remains the same.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, in respect of the Hidden World, I agree with everything you have written, these concepts are a part of human existence.

Australian Aboriginal culture was the oldest untouched culture in the world, up until the arrival of Europeans a couple of hundred years ago.

Some Aboriginal groups in Northern Australia had previously had intermittent contact with fishermen from the Archipelago, and family ties still exist between Australian Aboriginal people and people from Sulawesi. First contact with these Sulawesi people dates back to the 1700's.

But until that time, Australian Aboriginal people had been isolated from the rest of the world for around 60,000 years.

Still, in spite of this lengthy isolation, similarities in Australian Aboriginal spiritual beliefs can be found that are not that much different to the spiritual beliefs of other populations throughout the world.

However, although I do agree that some understanding of the Hidden World will assist in an understanding of mystic/spiritual/religious values attached to the keris, I would like to see our attention brought back to the beliefs that we find to be associated with the keris itself.

For example, just how much of present day mystic belief that is attached to the keris can be considered to be belief that is re-enforced by other long standing cultural & societal belief, and just how much of this present day belief that is associated with the keris can be identified as something comparatively recent and that echoes other changes within Indonesian, and indeed, world societal change?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, although I do agree that some understanding of the Hidden World will assist in an understanding of mystic/spiritual/religious values attached to the keris, I would like to see our attention brought back to the beliefs that we find to be associated with the keris itself.

For example, just how much of present day mystic belief that is attached to the keris can be considered to be belief that is re-enforced by other long standing cultural & societal belief, and just how much of this present day belief that is associated with the keris can be identified as something comparatively recent and that echoes other changes within Indonesian, and indeed, world societal change?

That is a very good question and i am not really sure how well we can really sort that out, though i am certainly open to the attempt. Certainly it does seem that their is quite a lot of mystical beliefs that has been attached to the keris in more recent times. While the roots of beliefs attached to Kejawèn go back for centuries, as an organized practice it seems to have a fairly recent history. While Alan has already expressed that Kejawèn is not central to our discussion about practices and beliefs associated with the keris, it does seem to me that many of the people in Jawa or other parts of Indonesia who espouse the mystical aspects of the keris have at least some belief or involvement in the Kejawèn movement. So it does seem to me that this philosophy has had at least some influence on more recent beliefs on the mysticism surrounding the keris in modern times. How much these beliefs have evolved or changed since ancient times is a question i do not have the information to answer, though i would be very interested to hear from those that do.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, in Jawa some of the concepts & ideas that are found within the Kejawen system of belief can also be found within keris systems of belief, but these concepts & ideas came from somewhere else before they entered either system of belief.

Kejawen is not central to keris belief, but both the keris and the belief system that is Kejawen might in some instances be related to one another.

However, this can be so only in Jawa.

How much of Javanese keris belief is found in Bali, and for that matter, how much of Balinese keris belief still exists in Jawa?


We are considering a wide swath of ideas when we set out look at some of the beliefs that can surround the keris, so it might help if we try to narrow things down a little and address some of these elements one at a time.

There are two very basic concepts that need to be clearly understood before we can advance, those two concepts are encapsulated in two words:-

tuah and isi

perhaps we could express our understandings of those two words within the context of keris belief?

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There are two very basic concepts that need to be clearly understood before we can advance, those two concepts are encapsulated in two words:-

tuah and isi

perhaps we could express our understandings of those two words within the context of keris belief?

Thanks for focusing the discussion, Alan. Here is my understanding of these words.

Isi means 'contents' or 'filling'. When a keris has "isi" this means that it is inhabited by a spirit - either good or bad. The old Javanese belief would have it that this spirit is one of or from nature. Newer beliefs attributable to Islam would say that jinns can inhabit keris. I think those that believe the latter would just say that the former are just types of jinn anyway. The keris as a vessel for spirit habitation or visitation is consistent with the idea that the keris is also a shrine.

Tuah - I'm not sure what the direct meaning or etymology of this word is in Javanese or BI. But anyway it refers to the keris' talismanic power or qualities. Only an Mpu can produce a keris with tuah due to their role in keris cultures as not only being masters of their craft but also having esoteric skills and knowledge. The methods by which a keris can be given power or life is known only by an Mpu. The tuah is usually tailored/matched for a particular person. Because it's a personalised affair a keris that has tuah cannot be passed onto someone else while expecting the talismanic effects of that keris to be available, let alone the same for the new custodian.

Given that keris that were made by Empus are vastly outnumbered by those that were not, most keris neither have the ability to have isi, nor do they have tuah.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, pretty much so Jaga.

As for "wrong" I'm a bit inclined to the idea that where opinions concerning beliefs are concerned nobody can be out & out wrong, but respected masters might well have opinions that vary from the lay opinion, or even the opinion of the bulk of keris literate people.

With this sort of thing we are talking about esoteric understanding, and the very meaning of esoteric is that things of an esoteric nature are only understood by a very limited number of people.

I think I'll be out of this discussion for a few days, I'm off to look for rocks.

[Green]

The literal meaning of the word Tuah in Malay (and bahasa Indonesia) is Luck.
When you add the prefix ber as in bertuah it means Lucky or fortunate.
Hence a keris that is deemed bertuah would give luck or fortunes to the owner. That is at least the theory. The opposite is a keris that is cursed, i.e bringing bad luck. Many people believe there exist both types of keris. How a keris has tuah or a curse is something I have not heard people explain .


One time a woman friend told me her friend wanted to let go of a keris. She and her friend have no interest or understanding about keris and hence offered it to me. It is a very old spokal type from the state of Perak Malaysia. She did not tell me about the background of the keris but I quite liked it and hence bought it. Much later I met again with her friend and asked him why he wanted to sell it. He told me that it was a pusaka in his family and has been handed down for several generations but nobody wanted it now. And I asked him why? this time he told me. It is because every family that kept this keris always had fights and bad fortunes. Basically it is a cursed keris! The bugger didn't tell me this when he wanted to sell it before!

But it didn't seem to give either bad or good luck to me as far as I can tell. It is still with me.

[Mickey the Finn]

Mods, please delete this post.

[David Gallas]

This is a very interesting discussion, and i like to contribute a reaction looking at it from the other side.
I live in Europe. I am proud to be Javanese. My mother is born in Bandung and my father is born in Yogjakarta, but actually my family comes from east Java. In Holland there live around 2.000.000 people who have their roots in Indonesia. We didn't have the Pancasila implementation in Holland, my family in Indonesia did! My family in Indonesia were sometimes afraid to be picked up, and they hided their keris...

I have been studying the western mind very closely. I think i understand the western brain a bit. The western way of looking at science, i would call, is: stay independent in thought,
be critical in what you hear and
think logical.
Metaphysical things, the things that can not be physical seen / measured, are having no place in the earthly way of thinking.

There is a very nice article that i want to share about this theme, from the university of Kansas:

Limitations of the Western Scientific Worldview for the Study of metaphysically Inclusive Peoples

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperi...?paperid=94195

Let me copy a part just to make you curiouse:
"“Wrong thinking in the natural sciences is lamentable but, sooner or later, will be rejected. Wrong thinking in the social sciences may escape this fate; thus it is not merely lamentable but dangerous” ( Feldhammer, 1967: p. 29).

The word “science” carries great authority in Western society ( Ryan, 2011; Turnbull, 2000), and “only through the use (and praise) of the ‘scientific method’ [can] any study put forth a claim to intellectual legitimacy” ( Feldhammer, 1967, pp. 29-30). The Western scientific worldview has become “a locus of cultural power” ( Marks, 2009: pp. x-xi), and its influence is so pervasive that “even the most liberal universities operate in ways that place substantial domains of human experience, thought, and insight outside the conventional bounds of legitimate knowledge” ( Howitt & Suchet-Pearson, 2003: p. 557). As a result, it now largely controls what is learned, what is funded, what is studied, how it is studied, and what is published ( Barth, 2002; Berkes, 2012; Marks, 2009). Seeking greater legitimacy, the social sciences adopted the Western scientific worldview and are attempting, with varying success, to align themselves with Western science through radical, uncompromising scientism ( Feldhammer, 1967).

However, the study and understanding of peoples whose worldviews include metaphysical phenomena and explanations is undermined by many social scientistsÂ’ strict adherence to the Western scientific worldview which acknowledges only physical phenomena and explanations. In anthropology and archaeology, for example, it has negatively impacted the study of those Native American and other Indigenous peoples whose knowledge traditions and worldviews make few or no distinctions between or at least inextricably link the physical world and the metaphysical world. Most importantly, it devalues and disrespects the knowledge and alternative worldviews of the very peoples that social scientists are attempting to more fully understand."

I am raised with Kejawen, we have some issues with the Dutch government, be we were free to believe what we wanted to believe. We still have spiritual meetings like the Selamatan, and there are still 1000nds and 1000nds keris here. Not only stolen but also family keris, received as heirloom from our parents, and yes for us it represent the holy mountain Meru, Kailash, no Djin or Khodam or other type of human looking spirit....

The top of the mountain is were the spirits live, the gods, your ancestors. So it can help you on a spiritual way.
Don't forget that there is also something as a placebo effect, "if i think it is, it is". So if it is really there or just my imagination, that doesn't matter for my brain, for me it is there!

[Green]

David;

Not coming from a Christian tradition my knowledge of Christianity is very little so my opinion below may be erroneos.

But I always believe that Christianity is full of fantastical stories about the other world, satan , exorcism and all that. Just as much as eastern religions.

The way I see it, the westerners are now much less concerned about mysticism and alternate realities/universe , not because they profess Christianity or live in Christian culture but the opposite. They have come away from this culture and turn primarily to secularism which eschew the unproven unknowns.

I guess the western worlds in the dark ages or even in the 19th century were as much as the eastern world in their belief of the unexplained.

Would the swords of the knights of the crusaders for example were believed to be magical as the keris in Indonesia today? My guess is, many believed they were.

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Not coming from a Christian tradition my knowledge of Christianity is very little so my opinion below may be erroneos.

But I always believe that Christianity is full of fantastical stories about the other world, satan , exorcism and all that. Just as much as eastern religions.

The way I see it, the westerners are now much less concerned about mysticism and alternate realities/universe , not because they profess Christianity or live in Christian culture but the opposite. They have come away from this culture and turn primarily to secularism which eschew the unproven unknowns.

I guess the western worlds in the dark ages or even in the 19th century were as much as the eastern world in their belief of the unexplained.

Would the swords of the knights of the crusaders for example were believed to be magical as the keris in Indonesia today? My guess is, many believed they were.

One of the big differences to be found between Christianity and Eastern religions is the rigid dichotomy that is found in the former. God (as it is understood) is good and Satan is evil. So all spirits that are good (angels) are of god and all other are of the devil and therefore "evil". If something is not "of God" it is to be shunned. This is not the case with the various gods and goddess of Hinduism, for instance. Concepts of good and evil are not so cut and dry. A good Christian in the Western world can't fully comprehend a goddess like Kali, for instance, who in her many manifestations can be both beneficial and destructive. The average Christian in the Western world does not think much about the unseen world that exists around them at all times. Certainly not on a daily basis. Stories about pacts with the devil and exorcisms are not really the same thing as that kind of daily existence. The concept that spirits exist in everything, from rocks, grass and trees to rivers, oceans and skys and all parts of the animal kingdom is not really a part of their daily understanding. In the exoteric church there is God, in the triad of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and then there is the adversary of the devil that tempts one from the path of goodness. This is a very different way of experiencing the world and deity than in the East. Again, we can find the mysticism of the Gnostics, for instance, but that is a path of Christianity that was considered heretical by the Church and punishable by death in many cases.
Regarding "magic" as it pertains to the swords of the crusaders, i have no doubt that many crusaders may have had their swords blessed by priests and felt that that helped them to victory on the battlefield. I am not aware, however, of crusader swords that were created from the start with magickal intent, that were imbued with power by the smith fasting, chanting and praying over them during the forging process. Forging itself has always been considered magickal in some regard. Their is something alchemical about it, taking the raw materials of iron ore and transforming them into useful and/or deadly tools and objects. But i do not believe the same kind of spiritual/magickal intention was ever applied to Western blades in quite the same way as the keris, certainly not in such a culturally ingrained manner.