A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

ariel · 8th July 2022, 02:24 PM

We can speculate until cows come home, but as long as the cartouches are not read we will remain in the dark.

mahratt · 8th July 2022, 07:00 PM

Unfortunately, the inscriptions of the 20th century are unlikely to tell us anything interesting about the dagger. In this case, they are secondary. First of all, we should pay attention to the external signs of the dagger.

ariel · 9th July 2022, 01:17 PM

I still believe that decoding the texts will bring valuable information. Thus, I took a liberty to send a pm to Kwiatek ( no response yet) and asked some of my colleagues , native Urdu, Farsi and Pashto speakers , to lend a hand.
Will see what transpires.
Both scabbard and handle are obviously old replacements but the blade is an interesting one and francantolin’s personal assessment of it is careful and honest and deserves as good an answer as possible.

gp · 9th July 2022, 02:09 PM

For the ones who did read my post, I deleted it so please look upon my comment as not written
Looking forward to the contributions of both gents in the future, much obliged

ariel · 9th July 2022, 03:00 PM

gp,
I am not ignoring them: I just expressed my general point of view. There is no need or obligation to refer to each and every previous post. Nothing personal, just different views on the practice of attribution.

Unless an item is obviously fake or “tourist”, it deserves careful consideration. Not making an effort to decipher the inscriptions ( especially with an uncertain date) prevents complete assessment of an item. Francantolin asked a legitimate question and specifically asked for translation.

I have consulted with knowledgeable people who can help, and I shall report the results. After that any person can keep his opinion, but at least we shall have full information that the new owner asked for.

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:04 PM

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:53 PM

The handle is interesting,
It has been modified later,
Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle
with an indian or afghan older blade.
Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok...

Sure and would be really helpful ,
The translation of the cartouche.
For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 .
No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !!
Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade )

ariel · 13th July 2022, 06:12 PM

Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail.

And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter.

I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

mahratt · 13th July 2022, 08:43 PM

Don't these words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

speak of comparison? Maybe I misunderstood because of my bad English? Dear forum members, correct me, please?

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

How time flies! A similar knife was sold at the Imperial auction in 2010 with the attribution "knife of the Crimean Tatars". The owner offered to discuss it in one of the Russian forums. It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

Most of the participants - but by no means all! - came to the conclusion that this is a knife from Afghanistan.

9th July 2022, 02:09 PM	#4
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	For the ones who did read my post, I deleted it so please look upon my comment as not written Looking forward to the contributions of both gents in the future, much obliged Last edited by gp; 9th July 2022 at 03:23 PM.

13th July 2022, 05:04 PM	#6
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you Ariel for your messages, I did some research on internet, I found this interesting caucasian knife Dates 1880 with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip. There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like mine Attached Images

13th July 2022, 05:53 PM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	The handle is interesting, It has been modified later, Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle with an indian or afghan older blade. Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok... Sure and would be really helpful , The translation of the cartouche. For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 . No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !! Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade ) Attached Images

8th July 2022, 02:24 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We can speculate until cows come home, but as long as the cartouches are not read we will remain in the dark.

8th July 2022, 07:00 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Unfortunately, the inscriptions of the 20th century are unlikely to tell us anything interesting about the dagger. In this case, they are secondary. First of all, we should pay attention to the external signs of the dagger.

9th July 2022, 01:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I still believe that decoding the texts will bring valuable information. Thus, I took a liberty to send a pm to Kwiatek ( no response yet) and asked some of my colleagues , native Urdu, Farsi and Pashto speakers , to lend a hand. Will see what transpires. Both scabbard and handle are obviously old replacements but the blade is an interesting one and francantolin’s personal assessment of it is careful and honest and deserves as good an answer as possible.

9th July 2022, 03:00 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	gp, I am not ignoring them: I just expressed my general point of view. There is no need or obligation to refer to each and every previous post. Nothing personal, just different views on the practice of attribution. Unless an item is obviously fake or “tourist”, it deserves careful consideration. Not making an effort to decipher the inscriptions ( especially with an uncertain date) prevents complete assessment of an item. Francantolin asked a legitimate question and specifically asked for translation. I have consulted with knowledgeable people who can help, and I shall report the results. After that any person can keep his opinion, but at least we shall have full information that the new owner asked for.

13th July 2022, 06:12 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail. And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter. I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.