Kilij: a strange story

werecow · 10th June 2022, 05:06 PM

Well, the date is clearly visible in the pictures and they do list it as 19th century, so perhaps what they're saying is that the gold decorations were re-applied in modern times?

Something about the curvature seems a bit too circular though. Compare to the one listed right next to it:

Decorations aside, that blade shape looks much more typical to me. It is much straighter throughout the first half or so of the blade. And the steel of the one in the OP looks unusually mirror-polished compared to other kilij I've seen - although I'm far from an expert. Could it be a western European made mamluk saber? Although the scabbard fittings do look Ottoman to me.

ariel · 10th June 2022, 08:40 PM

Well, the description clearly dated the whole sword to the END of 19 century, and just as clearly stated that the gold decorations INCLUDING the date were applied in "modern era".

AFAIK, such kilijes were not even militarily used by the end of the 19 century, although as a historicism an individual example might have been produced as a souvenir or for tourist trade. Even then, it would have been a carefully made expensive bauble.

Most suspiciously, Czerny's ( usually not the most forthright seller) placed the estimated worth at 400-600 euros, a patently low price for an early and sumptous kilij in excellent shape.

A mystery....

mariusgmioc · 19th June 2022, 06:17 PM

Most likely Czerny's were correct.

There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations.

I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.

ariel · 19th June 2022, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Most likely Czerny's were correct.

There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations.

I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.

The minute “1224” was put as a date, this kilij ceased to be a replica and became a fake.
i am impressed by the Czerny’s description.

10th June 2022, 05:06 PM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	Well, the date is clearly visible in the pictures and they do list it as 19th century, so perhaps what they're saying is that the gold decorations were re-applied in modern times? Something about the curvature seems a bit too circular though. Compare to the one listed right next to it: Decorations aside, that blade shape looks much more typical to me. It is much straighter throughout the first half or so of the blade. And the steel of the one in the OP looks unusually mirror-polished compared to other kilij I've seen - although I'm far from an expert. Could it be a western European made mamluk saber? Although the scabbard fittings do look Ottoman to me. Last edited by werecow; 10th June 2022 at 05:26 PM.

10th June 2022, 08:40 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the description clearly dated the whole sword to the END of 19 century, and just as clearly stated that the gold decorations INCLUDING the date were applied in "modern era". AFAIK, such kilijes were not even militarily used by the end of the 19 century, although as a historicism an individual example might have been produced as a souvenir or for tourist trade. Even then, it would have been a carefully made expensive bauble. Most suspiciously, Czerny's ( usually not the most forthright seller) placed the estimated worth at 400-600 euros, a patently low price for an early and sumptous kilij in excellent shape. A mystery.... Last edited by ariel; 10th June 2022 at 08:53 PM.

19th June 2022, 06:17 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Most likely Czerny's were correct. There are minute details in the style of the koftgari, in the material and shape of the blade that point towards a modern replica... not only the decorations. I have seen some absolutely astonishing replicas made by a Turkish swordsmith that could be easily taken for antiques, and I suspect this is one of his works.