Bugis keris

[Green]

i come to this forum just about every day religiously in the hope that there are new threads /posts or inputs on old posts.

Too bad that it has become rather empty lately. I do find this forum the only one that people do put effort to discuss honestly and seriously and my hat off to people like mr Maisey, David, Jean etc that i've benefited a lot in my keris knowledge from their comments on various keris matter.

[jagabuwana]

While it would be nice if this forum were more lively, I can understand why it isn't (anymore), for reasons mentioned by Alan and David.

The reality is that there really aren't that many Anglophone or English-speaking keris interested people.
And of that number I would say there are even less who like to, or have the knowledge to discuss and study the keris in the way that is often seen in this forum.
I think it's easy for us to underrate just how niche this interest is. It may not be as niche in the keris' home land, but we are an English-speaking forum.

There are also only so many keris in our possession that we can share or ask about. My collection is small, I don't add to it just for the sake of accumulating another keris, and sadly at the moment I find myself quite bereft of questions or contributions. There's plenty of contemplation, but this is not the forum for contemplation.

[Anthony G.]

According to a good friend from Sulawesi, it seems to be made of a variation of pamor Kurrisi.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

According to a good friend from Sulawesi, it seems to be made of a variation of pamor Kurrisi.

According to the reference Bugis keris book, La Kurisi seems to be one of the pamor techniques used in Sulawesi (apparently similar to pamor puntiran in Java?), alongwith La Toasi, La Kajing, La Gecong, (La) Gantara.

[A. G. Maisey]

I feel, that to a degree you are correct Milandro, I have noted that long before the presence of covid there was a tendency for people to jump in, ask a few questions, pass a comment or two, and then more or less disappear.

I have thought about this over time, and I believe that there are several factors involved. I feel that one of those factors could be the nature of the keris itself:- it can be quite difficult to come to an understanding of the nature of the keris, and of the multitude of aspects that it presents.

Several very well known & prolific contributors to other divisions of this Forum have commented to me in private correspondence that as they began to come to a slightly better understanding of the keris, they discovered that there were elements involved in a serious study of the keris that did not appeal to them, and so they lost interest.

I would be the first to admit that study of the keris does require a great deal of dedication over an extended period of time, and in the present day & age this sort of lengthy road needed to reach an objective seems to be not particularly popular.

Many people are simply collectors of objects, they have no desire at all to put forward the time & effort that is required to even accumulate and classify the keris.

I can see nothing negative in this rather simple approach, but it does seem to militate against somebody who wants quick results and instant satisfaction being able to satisfy his needs.

We could probably put together a whole list of reasons why we do not see as much action in this Keris Forum as we might like, but I do not wish to do that myself, perhaps some other people might like to offer a comment or three ?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We could probably put together a whole list of reasons why we do not see as much action in this Keris Forum as we might like, but I do not wish to do that myself, perhaps some other people might like to offer a comment or three ?

Some suggestions for explaining the progressing lack of interest in this keris Forum:
. The Covid pandemic has deeply affected the keris trade (people had other priorities), especially the commercial relationship between the Western collectors and the Indonesian dealers & collectors. It is now more difficult & costly to ship a keris to Indonesia for maintenance, or to receive one.
. The market for old krisses is largely depleted after years of strong interest due to the Unesco nomination of the keris in 2005. Since 2020 I could see only few attractive keris offers in European auctions such as Czerny's in Italy, and the reached prices for good pieces were discouraging for the average collectors.
. The keris collectors are ageing and no longer collecting or selling their collections, and the young generations are not much interested.
. The more stringent ivory ban has deeply affected the trade of ivory hilts.
. There is not much new knowledge emerging from the forum as most of the contributors have exhausted their resources.
Regards

[milandro]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We could probably put together a whole list of reasons why we do not see as much action in this Keris Forum as we might like,......... perhaps some other people might like to offer a comment or three ?

Alan, thank you for your comment.

Being a newcomer and a new “ adept” (for lack of a better wordt) in the world of the kris I have to say that while I enormously appreciate the advise and guidance of the more experienced people here, I too have felt that the forum has a very tight structure and ways to relate to one another which may be felt more than passingly intimidating and at times positively feel not welcome.

I am very active on a completely different forum and there I am, by now, one of the longest serving and more prolific members. I have seen there how newcomers may feel hushed by the longstanding members and I know all too well what that means.

I don’t believe that covid has much if anything to do with the shrinking of interest, in my opinion, forgive me, this is a red herring.

There is no shortage of krises where I live , being old or new, and I promise you that, in fact, in the Netherlands if anything the marketplace is growing because many collectors have reached the end of their lives and the collections are all sold at auction with no shortage of buyers. Some even relatively young and I know of some collectors or people washing krises that are in their late ’40.

Most Dutch people are proficient in English and there would certainly be more people spending time here if there would be a somewhat "lighter “ atmosphere.

Again, one can blame it on external factors and they certainly play a role, but a certain amount of introspective criticism may also serve the purpose to change in attitude which may appeal to more people.

Of course the people on the forum may conclude that having a dozen members active on the forum is what the forum wants and if that is so, so be it but I think that a lanrger number of people will bring fresh ideas and ways.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel, that to a degree you are correct Milandro, I have noted that long before the presence of covid there was a tendency for people to jump in, ask a few questions, pass a comment or two, and then more or less disappear.

I have thought about this over time, and I believe that there are several factors involved. I feel that one of those factors could be the nature of the keris itself:- it can be quite difficult to come to an understanding of the nature of the keris, and of the multitude of aspects that it presents.

Several very well known & prolific contributors to other divisions of this Forum have commented to me in private correspondence that as they began to come to a slightly better understanding of the keris, they discovered that there were elements involved in a serious study of the keris that did not appeal to them, and so they lost interest.

I would be the first to admit that study of the keris does require a great deal of dedication over an extended period of time, and in the present day & age this sort of lengthy road needed to reach an objective seems to be not particularly popular.

Many people are simply collectors of objects, they have no desire at all to put forward the time & effort that is required to even accumulate and classify the keris.

I can see nothing negative in this rather simple approach, but it does seem to militate against somebody who wants quick results and instant satisfaction being able to satisfy his needs.

We could probably put together a whole list of reasons why we do not see as much action in this Keris Forum as we might like, but I do not wish to do that myself, perhaps some other people might like to offer a comment or three ?

Dear all,

Personally I like this forum and visited it almost daily. This is a place where I can obtain conservative 2nd opinions rather than modern made up stories.

Some collectors just collect keris and they see it as a hobby rather than it is a serious thing that deserve study. And not many are willing to spend time and good efforts reading books about keris etc. I still felt that this forum will still serves it's purposes in years to come until senior knowledgeable members pass on to the other side.

I suppose to each of his own. I always told myself that rather than waiting for others to make the first step/move, why don't I make that first move instead and starting probing questions etc...............

[A. G. Maisey]

Anthony, I think Rick & David would like to put this discussion to sleep, and bearing in mind the history of dispute that keris discussion has generated in the past, I think I can understand their reasons, but that said, I do believe that you have hit on a major reason for the paucity of activity in this keris discussion forum, and that is a lack of questions.

Questions are generated by curiosity, and in my opinion curiosity about the keris is generated not by books about keris, but rather by thoughts that can be aroused by books and other sources of information about the social & historical background that the keris carries as baggage.

Without questions there can be no answers, and perhaps many people do not have questions simply because they lack the knowledge to generate those questions.

I do not believe that there is anything faulty in even the slightest degree with the format & conduct of this discussion group, it is not broken, so really there is nothing for our moderators to fix.

To my mind if there is a problem, it is just that perhaps all of the easy questions have already been answered and nobody has yet gathered sufficient understanding to permit them to ask the hard questions. I doubt that there is much that can be done about that except to encourage an ongoing learning process amongst our participants.

Somebody commented I believe, that:-

"there is no new information coming from this forum because most contributors have exhausted their resources"

from my own perspective I would most gently suggest that in at least one case this is very far from true, however, for information to be presented, the questions need to be asked, and to me it seems that the foundation knowledge required to ask serious questions is very, very thinly scattered.

It can be very difficult to frame a question in a way that will give you what you want. I have sometimes spent days working on a question --- or maybe even weeks --- answers can be often be spontaneous, but questions need thought & research, especially if one does not know much about the relevant field.

There is nothing at all wrong with this Forum in my opinion, the lack of questions might be because of a lack of interest from participants, or it might be because of a lack of adequate knowledge to permit the framing of questions.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Green

Too bad that it has become rather empty lately...

Since this has been brought up a few times now in this thread (and it has been on my mind often during the short time that I have been a member) let me , please, take some time and space to discuss it (although it may be better to open a thread about it)

I come to the forum often for reference and information BUT very seldom see new stuff.

New discussions are often cut very short after they are opened and I often see new members who are just participating for a short while and then no longer post. As far as I can tell ( reading through the posts) this was true even before the pandemic and the war so I wouldn’t ascribe it on the things happening in the world.

Truth to be told , the fora ( I have a long term experience elsewhere) are all suffering a diminishing interest because of the fact that their population is getting older and there is little fresh blood....BUT...

I think it is necessary to have some honest looking into the mirror and ask oneself the question why so many members knock on the door, which means they are obviously interested and motivated( by the way becoming a member requires some effort and waiting), then they ONLY briefly participate and then they silently go away...

If anything, the things happening in the world should motivate people to seek refuge in places like this rather then deter them from taking part!

I see no shortage of collectors (even young) in the Netherlands ( certainly one place in the world which after Indonesia has one of the highest density of krises per person in the world) , most of whom are capable to express their thoughts and questions in English and I have met and know several of them in the short time that I’ve become a kris person(if you pass me this expression) but some have expressed mixed feelings about this forum. Some people have been positively feeling a lot of resistance and few even told me they didn’t particularly feel that their contribution was appreciated much or felt welcome at all.

Now, obviously it is not my place to say what the forum should or shouldn’t be or do but if I had a restaurant where only few people occasionally sit, nibble a little and then come by only few times they they then stay away and never return, you can certainly blame it on the patrons themselves BUT, it is a good idea to look at the menu and whether the patrons feel welcome to stay and linger on or not.