Garuda Kris

[kino]

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by kino

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

Great pic! Wish we knew who had that bad boy!!! Did you find that on this forum?? I think I’ve seen that pic before, but don’t remember from where.

[kino]

I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France.

[Gustav]

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Gustav

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Thanks for this, was just looking at this yesterday. There's remarkable similarity regarding the carving placement (different okir though) between that kris with mine.

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Gustav

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Wow… another great thread! Your comments in that original thread linking back to a possible Chinese connection to this form is compelling. It also ties into the know time period placements and the potential origin of the hilt form. Obviously it continued to migrate to some extent, but these seem to be far more rare that the common forms.

Thank you so much for the light pointed in another direction!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kino

I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France.

P. Holstein,Contribution à l'Etude des Armes Orientales, Paris 1931

[Gavin Nugent]

I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.

[kino]

Here’s an odd one.
Small in size. Brass / copper alloy blade. Carving on the hilt could be a Tree of Life motif.

[kai]

Hello Albert,

You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread.

Here's another example with heavily stylized pommel (from Lonna's & Dave's collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17894).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Here's an example with a really diminutive pommel.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Another from the Thai Museum with similar but simple features.

Given the upright Royal Ligor types known too, I'm curious to know what is the oldest datable tapak kuda hulu type?

[Gavin Nugent]

Just bringing a couple of past links with some relevance together.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=268885

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15307

[kino]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Albert,

You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread.
Regards,
Kai

OOPS!

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.

I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,


I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion.

Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion.

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak.

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

Attachment 225595

The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak.

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

Hi Ian,

I've not yet any foot in either camp as to what the symbolism actually is, only what I see with what was previously presented and how I view iconography within this thread.

I think the visual references in a number of threads I've provided do suggest that it could well be... but I make the propositions because I am interested in insights about such things and to promote discussion.

The truth of the matter is, without a time machine, we will never really know... however discussion is important to develop idea and look at parallels within regions that share different cultures.

Like that Biblical inscription on the Kampilan, although drawn from the Koran, a very atypical thing to find as was the notion that it's hilt could potentially have been a Garuda representation, just as these hilts/pommels could be... it's all chicken/egg stuff though...

A good perspective, a discussion that has been ongoing for two hundred years, perhaps longer.
https://ayalamuseum.org/collection/1...%20god%20Indra).

Looking at some of the humanoid "Jawa Demam exotic hilts presented, could they actually represent angels and the floral motifs and tree of life motifs or mirror panels be symbolic of paradise.
Gabriel is particularly noted in the Koran and is the most important angel in Islam. The Angel Jibreel’s main responsibility is to communicate the Words of Allah to His prophets.
That would be pretty potent symbolism to carry.

More thoughts on the subject.

Gavin

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).


I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Kai,

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

I'm in the OTOH basket... they've already been presented and the type require context. Further to this, from the type presented, there have been other related type thrown in because of regional crossovers.

Originally Posted by kai

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.Kai

Indeed, almost anything is plausible within the time and place parameters.

Originally Posted by kai

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).

Where the Malay states are concerned, I note The Spirit of Wood and the Bunja Tanjong flower. See Spirit of wood, page 10 and numerous other references in the index.

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the ongoing discussions.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kino

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps

Well the detailed pics from your new piece will definitely expand the discussion!! My thoughts on these pieces are far from definitive but I still feel the distinct subset of this form is significant.

[Gavin Nugent]

Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.

Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these?

[Gavin Nugent]

A previous thread relating to one of the first in this thread presented here for discussion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4443

Seems a long time member previously owned it.

I'm definitely on board with Michael's Sabah assessment.

These continue to be discussed offline where more ideas and data are passed about.

I see them thus far as Labuan influenced too when looking at the top motif on the crown, it is a reoccuring theme from the region, just as that design is also seen in Sabah weaving too.

Some aspects of the motifs are seen in old Bugis drawings and carving which make sense given the large sea faring nation and the Maritime Silk Road running through Indonesia and SEA, but overall the style is unique.

Brunei being the longest power base behind the regions and the English disruptions in the 19th century, it makes sense when seeing these on both sides of the fence so to speak, as I believe there are a couple that saw service under the British navy, and others, as noted at the start of this thread as being taken from Sulu pirates on the Sabah coast lines by Naval staff on various vessels

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.

Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these?

Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?

I agree David. However, function can have some elegance to it.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gents.

I can appreciate this given space between 4 fingers, and be swayed to consider this but when you consider examples such as this;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=13

There is no practical application like grip enhancement?

And this one in Kino's collection, does the odd spacing really provide that much of a better grip when the hooked pommel provides just as much?

Idle thoughts thrown out for discussion.....

[Gavin Nugent]

So, a long long road digging, looking, reading, speaking with others and today this presents whilst researching a Kampilan.... there mostly goes my Sulu origin thoughts about the hulu....

First, another old thread of Alberts unique Chevron Kris dressed in the same manner as the metal hilted one he has. LUCKY and diligent Chap!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

Albert's other stunner

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

Battara's Datu Piang Kris

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

One Gustav discussed a while ago. One Chris had I believe.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

The golden one I was lucky enough to obtain.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=68

A photo of Datu Piang, from the University of WI I believe.
A couple of zoom details clearly showing his entourage both wearing and bearing Kris with this hilt type.

SO, with consideration to the Holstein Sulu example, and others of the similar type, found in other materials, provenanced to the Sulu and Sulu coastal areas of Borneo... what's the relationship regionally and historically.
I understand the Maguindanao people are spread far and wide. It is the common thread of timeline of this design influence that intrigues me.

PS, THAT whalebone Kampilan and the stunning scabbard with carry handle may need it's own thread! Simply stunning....

[Ian]

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali. Technically, Piang was subordinate to Ali (hence Ali in the center of this picture). I recall reading somewhere (maybe 20 years ago) that the Maguindanao Sultanate was closely linked to the Brunei Sultanate in the late 19th/early 20th C..