Schiavona - The one that got away

Victrix · 22nd April 2022, 05:12 PM

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Victrix · 22nd April 2022, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Some eyecandy for you

.

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Some eyecandy for you

.

Thank you! As a return favor, here are a couple of images of a hand-and-half sword I used to own (all too briefly). Had to sell it to finance another purchase which was too tempting to pass up. Despite its size, the balance was excellent, you could control it very well with just one hand.

werecow · 24th April 2022, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

The topic of the thread started out as "swords you didn't get or lost" and only thereafter got changed to be more "Schiavona-centric" so in that sense I feel like it is certainly within the scope of the thread.

werecow · 16th July 2022, 01:54 AM

I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else?

Philip · 16th July 2022, 06:43 AM

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

ulfberth · 16th July 2022, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

I agree with Philip, the pommel is from a shiavona, the blade possibly and the guard is from a walloon type or German type veld degen.
The guard is 18th c but indeed composit and recently peened.

urbanspaceman · 16th July 2022, 10:21 AM

Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki.
Ugly marriage.

fernando · 22nd April 2022, 08:07 PM

I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go.
Someone called this example a proto schiavona.

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Philip · 22nd April 2022, 09:34 PM

Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword.

What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

fernando · 23rd April 2022, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

No Filipe, i don't recall such detail, neither i have pictures taken in that angle; this took place back in 2012.
But i wouldn't discard the possibility that this pommel was a replacement. I tried to recuperate the post (?) where i had the opinion about the 'proto', to check on further possible details but ... no results.

22nd April 2022, 05:12 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone! Attached Images

16th July 2022, 01:54 AM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 596	I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else? Attached Images

16th July 2022, 10:21 AM	#9
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Catawiki Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki. Ugly marriage.

22nd April 2022, 08:07 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go. Someone called this example a proto schiavona. . Attached Images

16th July 2022, 06:43 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

22nd April 2022, 09:34 PM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword. What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.