early 1700s English swords

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2022, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Firstly: Fernando, in the list of blades required of the SB smiths that I include in this thread there is something I highlighted called a Portugall Cutt 40 - 48 inches long with 1, 2, or 3 hollows.
It is quite long at 48 inches; do you know what this is?

Jim, Noel Wells talks about "cutlasses illustrated here" recovered from the 1733 Spanish Fleet and having the BTF on the blade; did he provide illustrations of these swords?
Was Birmingham selling swords to the Spanish at that time?

Sorry forgot to add that page. Birmingham was a recipient of blades from Germany in degree, just as was Spain in this period. It does not seem that Harvey used the BTF until 1740s, though as you have discovered the BTF may well have originated with Oley in Shotley prior to this.

If not mistaken, this drawing of the hanger blade from the 1733 wrecks with running wolf seems a bit out of context with the Spanish fleet. As seen with the hanger from Henrietta Marie, these staghorn hangers were more English than Spanish, and the Running Wolf appeared on blades from Hounslow.
Birmingham wasnt producing much in 1733 as far as Ive known.

Perhaps these details out of context ? we know the H was only on BTF, never on the running wolf, and it seems only SH occurred....there might have been an H only case.

urbanspaceman · 20th April 2022, 10:37 AM

Thank-you Fernando.
I may have seen such a thing, but I never gave it any serious consideration until...
Now I'm thinking: to deliberately weaken the forte that way, indicated a great unlikeliness the owner would ever have considered blocking a heavy blow; but I suppose at that time and place everyone would be fighting with rapiers.
It is certainly a fine element of construction: I like it. Thanks again.

Jim:
thoughts spring to mind regarding the presence of possibly English swords on a Spanish ship.
I've heard it was suspected that most seaman fought with whatever they could get their hands on, so captured English blades may well have been acquired.
I also am coming to the conclusion (this may already be established fact) that stag horn was popular for sea-going work; it definitely would do a good job resisting salt erosion and wet conditions better than almost anything else.
This brings to mind my curious clipped point, brass hilted, stag grip machete (see attached) which you suspected might be for sea-going work.

Finally:
I am left with a lack of confirmation as to the type of swords used by British militia in the early 1700s; of the type Cotesworth and Oley were sending to the Tower; Cotesworth being the North East agent for the Hollow Sword Blade Company; Oley being autonomous after 1713 and regarded as the finest sword-blade producer in the country... eventually selling to Birmingham as well, hence the appearance of his BTF modified by the likes of the Samuels and William Harvey et al.
Apropos of that final statement I will include a piece of history that may well interest all:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told to a travelling chronicler visiting Shotley Bridge (William Hone) by one of the Oley descendants: this story accords with established history:*
"James Justice Runkle, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar. But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the suspected blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."
*History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.oo: a sum in 1787 that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.*

20th April 2022, 10:37 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	cuts and cutlasses Thank-you Fernando. I may have seen such a thing, but I never gave it any serious consideration until... Now I'm thinking: to deliberately weaken the forte that way, indicated a great unlikeliness the owner would ever have considered blocking a heavy blow; but I suppose at that time and place everyone would be fighting with rapiers. It is certainly a fine element of construction: I like it. Thanks again. Jim: thoughts spring to mind regarding the presence of possibly English swords on a Spanish ship. I've heard it was suspected that most seaman fought with whatever they could get their hands on, so captured English blades may well have been acquired. I also am coming to the conclusion (this may already be established fact) that stag horn was popular for sea-going work; it definitely would do a good job resisting salt erosion and wet conditions better than almost anything else. This brings to mind my curious clipped point, brass hilted, stag grip machete (see attached) which you suspected might be for sea-going work. Finally: I am left with a lack of confirmation as to the type of swords used by British militia in the early 1700s; of the type Cotesworth and Oley were sending to the Tower; Cotesworth being the North East agent for the Hollow Sword Blade Company; Oley being autonomous after 1713 and regarded as the finest sword-blade producer in the country... eventually selling to Birmingham as well, hence the appearance of his BTF modified by the likes of the Samuels and William Harvey et al. Apropos of that final statement I will include a piece of history that may well interest all: Around 1830, an interesting story is told to a travelling chronicler visiting Shotley Bridge (William Hone) by one of the Oley descendants: this story accords with established history:* "James Justice Runkle, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar. But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the suspected blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley." History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.oo: a sum in 1787 that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money. Attached Images