Keris (or not ?) with chinese handle

Gustav · 8th April 2022, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One other thing:- the selut is very recent, I'd say 1960's at the very earliest, this pattern selut is usually plated brass.

Alan, why do you think the selut is very recent?

Jean · 8th April 2022, 09:39 AM

The ganja of the blade seems to be missing? This type of selut made from gilt brass is common and recent indeed (tourist quality) but this one may have some age?

milandro · 8th April 2022, 10:09 AM

I wonder if this was always a kris blade or was it not a pendang blade adapted to be used onto a kris?

as for the Deity , I am not an expert of Chinese deity but I looked up a few images (I like the challenge)

Could she be Mazu? Goddes of the Sea? Especially revered by Chinese living in South-East Asia

Sometimes depicted with an object on her right or left shoulder and sometimes with a fly whisk, she is a Sea Goddess especially revered by Min people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2022, 11:04 AM

Gustav:- because I have seen literally thousands of this pattern selut, none have been old. They are very common in Jogja, I do not agree with Jean that they are tourist, in fact, in recent years the idea of "tourist" is pretty much something that is long past. People in Central Jawa use this type of selut on decent keris, it is common, and it is not expensive.

Jean:- I believe it is certain that the blade has been re-shaped from something, I think probably a keris, but really, it could be anything big enough to accommodate it.

Gustav · 8th April 2022, 11:23 AM

Alan, this type of Selut was common in Jogja already around 1900 and most probably at least 20 years earlier. It is depicted in Groneman's plates on some of Karyodikromo's Keris, he calls the motif on this Traptrapan Selut Untuq-Untuq.

The Selut of Athanase seems to be lower in quality, because the upper rim is straight, but low quality in silver is perhaps a bit unusual.

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2022, 01:52 PM

As I said Gustav, I have never seen an old one.

You have apparently seen some photos of older ones.

Can you tell me where the photos depicting these older examples might be found?

Thank you.

The fact that the upper rim of this selut is straight has nothing at all to do with quality. This hilt must use a selut with a straight upper rim, a scalloped rim used with this hilt would destroy the harmony of the figural carving & in Javanese eyes would be seen as totally out of place.

The scalloped rim that we so often see on planar hilts is a convention used in order to accommodate & emphasise the planes of the hilt.

Gustav · 8th April 2022, 02:17 PM

Alan, exactly, that would include the possibility that the Selut was made to accomodate the figurine turned into hilt.
Regarding more recent Selut, I have seen by far more ones with stright upper rim mated to planar hilts, and this is, what I would call lower quality.

If you have van Duuren's edition of Gronemans articles, photographs of Keris with such Selut can be found on pages 267, 264, possibly of higher quality 251.

I own two Keris with such Selut, both came to Europe before WWI.

8th April 2022, 10:09 AM	#3
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 498	I wonder if this was always a kris blade or was it not a pendang blade adapted to be used onto a kris? as for the Deity , I am not an expert of Chinese deity but I looked up a few images (I like the challenge) Could she be Mazu? Goddes of the Sea? Especially revered by Chinese living in South-East Asia Sometimes depicted with an object on her right or left shoulder and sometimes with a fly whisk, she is a Sea Goddess especially revered by Min people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu Last edited by milandro; 8th April 2022 at 10:53 AM.

8th April 2022, 11:23 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Alan, this type of Selut was common in Jogja already around 1900 and most probably at least 20 years earlier. It is depicted in Groneman's plates on some of Karyodikromo's Keris, he calls the motif on this Traptrapan Selut Untuq-Untuq. The Selut of Athanase seems to be lower in quality, because the upper rim is straight, but low quality in silver is perhaps a bit unusual. Last edited by Gustav; 8th April 2022 at 11:59 AM.

8th April 2022, 01:52 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	As I said Gustav, I have never seen an old one. You have apparently seen some photos of older ones. Can you tell me where the photos depicting these older examples might be found? Thank you. The fact that the upper rim of this selut is straight has nothing at all to do with quality. This hilt must use a selut with a straight upper rim, a scalloped rim used with this hilt would destroy the harmony of the figural carving & in Javanese eyes would be seen as totally out of place. The scalloped rim that we so often see on planar hilts is a convention used in order to accommodate & emphasise the planes of the hilt. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 8th April 2022 at 02:05 PM.

8th April 2022, 02:17 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Alan, exactly, that would include the possibility that the Selut was made to accomodate the figurine turned into hilt. Regarding more recent Selut, I have seen by far more ones with stright upper rim mated to planar hilts, and this is, what I would call lower quality. If you have van Duuren's edition of Gronemans articles, photographs of Keris with such Selut can be found on pages 267, 264, possibly of higher quality 251. I own two Keris with such Selut, both came to Europe before WWI. Last edited by Gustav; 8th April 2022 at 02:49 PM.

8th April 2022, 09:39 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The ganja of the blade seems to be missing? This type of selut made from gilt brass is common and recent indeed (tourist quality) but this one may have some age?

8th April 2022, 11:04 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Gustav:- because I have seen literally thousands of this pattern selut, none have been old. They are very common in Jogja, I do not agree with Jean that they are tourist, in fact, in recent years the idea of "tourist" is pretty much something that is long past. People in Central Jawa use this type of selut on decent keris, it is common, and it is not expensive. Jean:- I believe it is certain that the blade has been re-shaped from something, I think probably a keris, but really, it could be anything big enough to accommodate it.