Shamshir hilts

dakary · 16th March 2022, 11:37 PM

So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.

One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

ariel · 17th March 2022, 10:28 AM

If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book:

Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths”

You will be greatly surprised:-)
You can find it on bookfinder.com
Very pricey….

dakary · 17th March 2022, 05:04 PM

I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though.

I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries):

It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela).

This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

ariel · 18th March 2022, 04:35 AM

Well, if you want to spend your money on a modern pseudo-copy, fee free.
But IMHO, it will be just a pseudo-copy, not the real thing. First, you may want to educate yourself about real Mamluk swords. Just as a hint, they predated Ottoman swords and the Europe copied them and not vice versa.
For $75 you can buy on Amazon or on e-bay a superb book by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac “ A study of the Eastern sword ”. You will find tons of data on Mamluk swords there, although nothing beats Ucel’s book in terms of actual examples.
That’s if you are serious about collecting and owning real history and not modern copies. If your goal is just to cut thin tree branches, a copy will suffice.

dakary · 18th March 2022, 05:49 PM

That's not at all what I want. I want a modern replica that is as historically accurate as possible (I know that this forum has a lot of antique collectors, which is deeply interesting, but that's not what I am looking for either). This is of paramount importance to me. I've found it easier to accomplish this with European arms. I've bought pieces from, for example, Albion, and Tod Cutler (and ordered from Tod's workshop too).

I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the equivalent for eastern medieval arms. I tend to wallow in about 1450-1520AD when it comes to European stuff (and, in particular, German) and I'd like a contemporary from the Mamluk Sultanate or, perhaps, the wider Abbasid Caliphate. I've had Peserey Handicrafts recommended to me (there is a language barrier here too). But one thing about, for example, Tod's workshop is that he knows the 15th century German stuff so well and he can offer advice based on what I want and I trust him to deliver on craftsmanship and detail to historical accuracy.

I'm also starting this from a position of relative ignorance (not that I am an expert on the German stuff - I certainly am not, but I have a greater basis of information as a starting point). I've got a shortlist of some books and I will try to add those you've recommended to me, ariel. Still, I'd also like to absorb as much information from forum members as I can, if they're willing to help me. Thank you!

ariel · 18th March 2022, 08:01 PM

Sorry if I gave an impression to judge your collecting criteria; that was not my intention. There are as many collections as there are collectors. We all have different goals and criteria and they are legitimate personal choices.
I too would be interested what the other Forumites say.

dakary · 18th March 2022, 10:12 PM

Thanks Ariel. You did not give that impression at all! I just figured that there is no sense in being cryptic. If I am detailed about what I am looking for, I'm hoping that I will get better (as in pertinent) responses.

I'm wondering if for eastern arms replicas I need to be less picky and instead of trying to get Hamit to customize something, just get one of his normal offerings, which I am sure are well researched and accurate, and not worry if it is in my favored time period. He has an "early hilt" version of his kilij which is nice, for example. I also like his standard shamshir on its own merits. I'd just really highly prefer something 15th-16th century and within the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate...

Yes, it would be nice to hear from others but I get the impression I am a few years too late...it seems like all arms and armour forums used to be more lively than they are now.

18th March 2022, 04:35 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, if you want to spend your money on a modern pseudo-copy, fee free. But IMHO, it will be just a pseudo-copy, not the real thing. First, you may want to educate yourself about real Mamluk swords. Just as a hint, they predated Ottoman swords and the Europe copied them and not vice versa. For $75 you can buy on Amazon or on e-bay a superb book by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac “ A study of the Eastern sword ”. You will find tons of data on Mamluk swords there, although nothing beats Ucel’s book in terms of actual examples. That’s if you are serious about collecting and owning real history and not modern copies. If your goal is just to cut thin tree branches, a copy will suffice. Last edited by ariel; 18th March 2022 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Typos

16th March 2022, 11:37 PM	#1
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated. One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?

17th March 2022, 10:28 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If you are interested in Mamluk swords, get yoursels a book: Unsal Yucel “Islamic swords and sworsmiths” You will be greatly surprised:-) You can find it on bookfinder.com Very pricey….

17th March 2022, 05:04 PM	#3
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	I just looked for that book at a few places, including ABE books, and...yikes. It does look fantasic though. I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended to me a couple times) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries): It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela). This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...

18th March 2022, 05:49 PM	#5
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	That's not at all what I want. I want a modern replica that is as historically accurate as possible (I know that this forum has a lot of antique collectors, which is deeply interesting, but that's not what I am looking for either). This is of paramount importance to me. I've found it easier to accomplish this with European arms. I've bought pieces from, for example, Albion, and Tod Cutler (and ordered from Tod's workshop too). I'm having a hell of a time trying to find the equivalent for eastern medieval arms. I tend to wallow in about 1450-1520AD when it comes to European stuff (and, in particular, German) and I'd like a contemporary from the Mamluk Sultanate or, perhaps, the wider Abbasid Caliphate. I've had Peserey Handicrafts recommended to me (there is a language barrier here too). But one thing about, for example, Tod's workshop is that he knows the 15th century German stuff so well and he can offer advice based on what I want and I trust him to deliver on craftsmanship and detail to historical accuracy. I'm also starting this from a position of relative ignorance (not that I am an expert on the German stuff - I certainly am not, but I have a greater basis of information as a starting point). I've got a shortlist of some books and I will try to add those you've recommended to me, ariel. Still, I'd also like to absorb as much information from forum members as I can, if they're willing to help me. Thank you!

18th March 2022, 08:01 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry if I gave an impression to judge your collecting criteria; that was not my intention. There are as many collections as there are collectors. We all have different goals and criteria and they are legitimate personal choices. I too would be interested what the other Forumites say.

18th March 2022, 10:12 PM	#7
dakary Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 26	Thanks Ariel. You did not give that impression at all! I just figured that there is no sense in being cryptic. If I am detailed about what I am looking for, I'm hoping that I will get better (as in pertinent) responses. I'm wondering if for eastern arms replicas I need to be less picky and instead of trying to get Hamit to customize something, just get one of his normal offerings, which I am sure are well researched and accurate, and not worry if it is in my favored time period. He has an "early hilt" version of his kilij which is nice, for example. I also like his standard shamshir on its own merits. I'd just really highly prefer something 15th-16th century and within the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate... Yes, it would be nice to hear from others but I get the impression I am a few years too late...it seems like all arms and armour forums used to be more lively than they are now.