Garuda Kris

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy".

I do not understand what is meant by this.

With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper.

We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon.

Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use.

I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world.

Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

[Battara]

I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant).

Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then.

[kino]

Jose, to answer your question, Yes, copper + tin or copper + zinc alloys.
I’m really not sure what the blade composition is other than having copper content. Nothing mentioned about being a battle blade.

[David R]

As I understand it, copper and brass blades are for ritual and supernatural uses. Protection against "witches and demons".

[SanibelSwassa]

For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated.

[SanibelSwassa]

Obviously we are focusing on the pummel at this point.

[kino]

Here’s another pommel of similar form. I don’t have a current photo of the whole sword.

[SanibelSwassa]

Kino… thank you!! Look for as many examples I can find to try to correlate characteristics, symbolisms and potential origin. And and all comments and thoughts are very welcome.

[David]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated.

While i realize that the image of Garuda has an impact all across S.E.A. i do have to wonder why an Islamic culture would place enough importance upon it to consider it's symbolism appropriate for use in this manner. I don't see much left in this abstracted form to be able to definitely identify it as a bird form, but it very well could be. But why Garuda? The Moro, more specifically the Maranao people, have a long history with the mythical bird Sarimanok for instance. Why are we fixated on Garuda as a symbol for an Islamic weapon?

[Sajen]

Another one, simple and in wood: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kris

[SanibelSwassa]

I don’t know that I’d call this a fixation but rather a hypothesis. We have a Kris form that significantly deviates from all other Moro forms. I am suggesting that one possible reason for the divergence is that the form is dislocated from the traditions which bind other Kris making groups within the region. My working hypothesis is that the makers of this form are not the traditional Islamic Moro smiths with which we are accustomed. The pattern of the hilt form is significant and distinct from the other forms to a degree to which conjecture as to origin, symbolism and form change are IMHO questions we should be open to exploring.

As for the bird form… I would ask you to look again at the two archaic hilts I last posted and look first for the similarities, which I find to be very compelling. Once those are identified then questioning the dissimilarity and the possible reasons for them could help us determine different directions for discussion as to origin, etc. It is for this reason I’ve asked forum member to assist in locating any other reference pieces for this discussion.

Theories on other symbolic forms that could be the genesis for these deviations are definitely open for discussion and ideas in that vain will be appreciated. I would however point to the fact that the Garuda figure as far as cultural timetable relevance throughout SEA is very significant and all kris forms likely have some influence from exposure to these earliest of documented empires that encompassed these areas. However, Buddhist, Islam and then Christian empires definitely overlaid this same region. Also given that what I will refer to as “Native” mythology certainly existed and was likely significantly influenced by each of these successive empires over time.

My question as a starting point for this discuss is to dive into the possible answers, not to prove the one I think potentially viable.

With that said here is another pic I found in the forum that is interesting. I believe Ron may have owned this kris.

[xasterix]

Hi, my kris also has an indomalay hilt which Rafngard referred to as Jawa Demam. Like you, I'm also trying to research its history in the Bangsamoro timeline. I like how it fits in my hand.