19c Sudanese Sabre?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Thanks, Jim. I would think it is of Historical value, if not 'Scientific'. Just knowing these were in use in the period is of historic importance. A titbit, not a full meal, but tasty in any case.

Exactly! In studying weapons from the historic perspective, which is of course what is my own affliction, there is a lot of speculation and theory based on what is usually pretty circumstantial evidence. This is a thing that is highly verboten in the academic world, as there everything must be empirically proven.

The rugged and often crude nature of these kinds of ersatz weapons which often evolved in times of conflict, insurrection and outright war are often of course variations of known forms of the time and place. In many cases they are comprised of components of numbers of weapons and made in imitation of others. The goal is naturally to assemble weapons which are viable for combat use, which this example, as noted, seems to fit the bill. In the early stages of the Mahdiyya, tribesmen were carrying wooden swords until they were replaced with actual swords either captured or from the fallen.

The value of this kind of a weapon of course does not fit well in the categoric ajenda of arms collecting of specific forms by the number, but does deserve a place in the realm of potentially historic arms . These kinds of conundrums I personally find the most fascinating, and the possibilities exciting despite being outside the parameters of empirical analysis.

[kronckew]

'Ersatz', as in substitute' rather than 'phoney', frquently locally made when the government couldn't supply them fast enough. Much Like Bauernmesser, Dussaks, and long 'shepherds knives'/karakulak yataghans from the balkans. (and like ersatz coffee made from chickory when we couldn't impot any) I still like coffee with chickory.

[Jim McDougall]

The ERSATZ denominator for edged weapons is actually often quite broad in remote and frontier regions, especially in colonial situations. In the tribal areas of Africa in many cases it was actually prevalent as natives used the blades brought in with trade more often than using those locally produced. Also many foreign weapons were constantly repurposed.

In colonial New Spain, the 'machete', commonly termed the espada ancha, was a locally made cutlass type hanger made in imitation of those typically seen in maritime use. While these were indeed 'ersatz' in a sense, in the early days they were often fashioned from cut down Spanish dragoon broadsword blades until local blacksmiths began making heavier blades.

The first picture is a traditional style espada ancha; next is an 'ersatz' version which uses a 'briquet' hilt, a three bar cavalry guard, and the Spanish dragoon broadsword blade which is cut down.

Examples of these kinds of weapons are a genre of collecting virtually of its own, and the examples are intriguing elements of history in many if not most cases.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The ERSATZ denominator for edged weapons is actually often quite broad in remote and frontier regions, especially in colonial situations. In the tribal areas of Africa in many cases it was actually prevalent as natives used the blades brought in with trade more often than using those locally produced. Also many foreign weapons were constantly repurposed.

In colonial New Spain, the 'machete', commonly termed the espada ancha, was a locally made cutlass type hanger made in imitation of those typically seen in maritime use. While these were indeed 'ersatz' in a sense, in the early days they were often fashioned from cut down Spanish dragoon broadsword blades until local blacksmiths began making heavier blades.

The first picture is a traditional style espada ancha; next is an 'ersatz' version which uses a 'briquet' hilt, a three bar cavalry guard, and the Spanish dragoon broadsword blade which is cut down.

Examples of these kinds of weapons are a genre of collecting virtually of its own, and the examples are intriguing elements of history in many if not most cases.

Love these examples.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

Love these examples.

Thank you so much David!
Ive been sort of crazy on espada anchas most of my life, growing up in Southern Calif. they were around and saw them long before I knew what they were. I've done research on them for more years than I can say, and there are still far more questions than answers

[David R]

I can see it as being a very rewarding area of collection and research, to do with of a largely ignored part of American history! Please keep posting.

[ariel]

I think we have to distinguish between “attribution’ and “habitation”
The former indicates belonging to a certain ethnic military tradition, the latter to the place it was used.
We can see pulwars in Central Asian museums, British swords in Indian arsenals, Portugese, Spanish and French blades on Moroccan nimchas, one of the internet auctions recently sold a a classical Ottoman kilij with obviously latter engraved Sanskrit innscription on the blade. Egerton included Ottoman yataghan into the plate with Nepalese weapons ( likely, it might have been bought there).
How are we to attribute them? IMHO, we may desribe them as “ Moroccan nimcha with a repurposed French ( or other) blade’’, “ Ottoman kilij with ( later) usage in India “, etc.
It will be no different from “Afghani khyber made in India” or “South Indian sword with North Indian handle” etc.
Elgood taught us that a significant proportion of Indian swords were in fact repurposed and mixed creations of different parts and age The same likely appies to weapons from other parts of the world. Weapons traveled, had been repaired repeatedly, acquired new parts, all in different locations.
The only attributable part of Wayne’s sword is its Sudanese scabbard. The rest is a village blacksmith’s rendition of a “european” sword with uncertain atribution.
We can safely call it “ An impovised East African sword” ( simply because to its geographic proximity to Sudan) , but its accurate atribution is incredibly difficult and have a very high chance to be erroneous.

No critique or offence was intended, it was just an attempt to mark the boundaries of our ignorance. We see highly respectable and knowlegeable researchers and dealers dating their examples as “ 17-19th century” or “Likely Turkmeni- repaired Persian shamshir”. My minor quibbles are nothing in comparison.