Barung(s) for you

MABAGANI · 28th January 2005, 07:44 AM

Zamboanga, etch shows nice on your pic, can we see your shandigan barung too. I'd like to hear what the Tausug trader knows about the marks. I'll post again when I handle and examine the sword.
Battara, I never get tired of seeing that barung...

MABAGANI · 1st February 2005, 02:35 PM

Bumping this subject brought up about barungs from the recent keris to kris/dating thread.

So where does Sulu/Tausug and the barung in your opinion fall into place, if the Maranao and Iranun retain the kampilan early on as their weapon of choice with the kris coming at some later point. Again it is in the 17th century where I find first mention of the barung and strangely it is in relation to Maguindanao history. In regards to the diffusion of the keris to kris, I don't see it only limited to Sulu, there are clear examples of the early form transcending the major Moro regions that remained independent including Brunei, Sulu, Maguindanao and Maranao each carrying their own characteristics but only one verifiable point in history where they converge, during the rise of the Maguindanao Sultanate, an explanation for the uniform shape of the early kris form. This does not point to an exclusive origin to the Maguindanao but a joint effort among the various Sultanates to consolidate culturally. The barung became favored among the Tausug and was later used to indentify themselves as a distinct group as they began their rise to power while the Maguindanaos declined.
btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

Spunjer · 1st February 2005, 04:10 PM

this is kinda straying of the main topic but it's something that i feel relates to what you've just mentioned, mabagani. i posted this on a different forum, so rather than typing it all over again, i'll copy-n-paste it here:

Quote:

...which leads me to my personal theory:

was arnis/escrima developed by the visayans as a form of self defense against the pillaging moros? i really don't subscribed to 'it's been there before the spaniards came'. even pigafetta's report was vague. i know it's common knowledge on FMA that lapulapu used some type of kali art to defeat magellan, but if you read pigafetta's report (google it!), in a roundabout way, he got hit with a spear, and when the natives saw him fall, they bumrushed the guy. so where's the kali skill on that? also if you looked at where escrima is predominant in the map, it's centered at panay/negros/cebu area, direct access from mindanao. another clue are the masters. did you ever noticed that majority are visayans? if there were masters from somewhere else (luzon and northern mindanao), they either;
a)learned it from a visayan.
b)their family migrated from the visayan region.
c)saw it from their trip to the visayas

you see my pattern here? so to sum it up, arnis/escrima originated in visayan region within the last 300-400 years ago, out of neccessity, to defend themselves from the marauding moros. the visayan must've been so terrorized and at the same time enthralled by the way these moros handled their barungs, krises, kampilans, piras and bangkungs that they have to come up with a way to defend themselves. they saw a pattern/patterns on how the moros fight, and exploited that angle. how is that first practiced? by using sticks. and then later on the skill being transferred to binangons, tenegre, pinuti and some other indegenous visayan weapon.

i know i'm opening a can of worms here, but not after i started collecting moro weapons did the whole picture started to make sense. you see, after starting collecting, i started reading about our forgotten brothers, to learn more about their history and within just these past few months, i've learned so much about them and their weapons. the sad thing about it, i used to live in mindanao...

and here's a response...

Quote:

Spunjer,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
esgrimador,

this is interesting that someone laid out this theories before! could you please give me some links? i know FMA has been romanticized. that all good, but the truth is still out there somewhere...

Here's the link to some good articles on this specific subject. The first one by Celestino Macachor is especially fascinating (and it has apparently been updated and expanded):

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

like i said, it's pretty interesting. i guess another angle to look at.

LabanTayo · 1st February 2005, 04:14 PM

thats funny.....a barong used for a visayan or luzon art.....
i've heard the same thing for a long time.
all FMA'ist's do need to read their history and background of their art's.
most FMA's come from the visayas area.

if anyone knows of what art was based on the Samar Garab, let me know. still trying to figure out how it is used.

themorningstar · 2nd February 2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

thats funny.....a barong used for a visayan or luzon art.....
i've heard the same thing for a long time.
all FMA'ist's do need to read their history and background of their art's.
most FMA's come from the visayas area.

if anyone knows of what art was based on the Samar Garab, let me know. still trying to figure out how it is used.

i'm not sure if i can recall any ONE system that centers around the garab, however there is a special significance to the garab and its "relationship" to bangsamoro.

themorningstar · 2nd February 2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

i agree mabagani.you see no evil, because there is no evil. barungs are evil, simple as that mabagani. the saddest part to it all are those that try to fit the barung into their system. the barung is a system and science onto itself.

MABAGANI · 2nd February 2005, 05:40 PM

Huun, barung taymanghud usug

engar · 4th February 2005, 12:02 AM

Mabagani, can you speak a little about the traditional use of barong?
Thanks.

MABAGANI · 4th February 2005, 06:55 AM

Sworn to secrecy...not to offend, but traditional combative arts from Mindanao and Sulu are handed down generation to generation within families and protected. Ask any Moro who knows and they would not readily display it, their fighting arts have kept them safe for centuries and are held in confidence and cherished, one of the reasons why when I see people use a barung, or kris or kampilan for that matter and say this is how its used and they show me their eskrima or arnis moves I wonder why they try to pass it on as truth...

engar · 4th February 2005, 08:47 AM

Don´t worry You didn´t offend me. It´s very difficult find info about Moro fighting skills (silat, kuntao, arnis or whatever). Anyway I don´t know why but info about Luzon and Visaya weapons are very uncommon while you can found a lot of info about Moro weapons easily.

28th January 2005, 07:44 AM	#1
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Zamboanga, etch shows nice on your pic, can we see your shandigan barung too. I'd like to hear what the Tausug trader knows about the marks. I'll post again when I handle and examine the sword. Battara, I never get tired of seeing that barung... Last edited by MABAGANI; 28th January 2005 at 04:58 PM.

4th February 2005, 06:55 AM	#9
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Sworn to secrecy...not to offend, but traditional combative arts from Mindanao and Sulu are handed down generation to generation within families and protected. Ask any Moro who knows and they would not readily display it, their fighting arts have kept them safe for centuries and are held in confidence and cherished, one of the reasons why when I see people use a barung, or kris or kampilan for that matter and say this is how its used and they show me their eskrima or arnis moves I wonder why they try to pass it on as truth... Last edited by MABAGANI; 4th February 2005 at 07:08 AM.

1st February 2005, 02:35 PM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Bumping this subject brought up about barungs from the recent keris to kris/dating thread. So where does Sulu/Tausug and the barung in your opinion fall into place, if the Maranao and Iranun retain the kampilan early on as their weapon of choice with the kris coming at some later point. Again it is in the 17th century where I find first mention of the barung and strangely it is in relation to Maguindanao history. In regards to the diffusion of the keris to kris, I don't see it only limited to Sulu, there are clear examples of the early form transcending the major Moro regions that remained independent including Brunei, Sulu, Maguindanao and Maranao each carrying their own characteristics but only one verifiable point in history where they converge, during the rise of the Maguindanao Sultanate, an explanation for the uniform shape of the early kris form. This does not point to an exclusive origin to the Maguindanao but a joint effort among the various Sultanates to consolidate culturally. The barung became favored among the Tausug and was later used to indentify themselves as a distinct group as they began their rise to power while the Maguindanaos declined. btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

1st February 2005, 04:14 PM	#4
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	thats funny.....a barong used for a visayan or luzon art..... i've heard the same thing for a long time. all FMA'ist's do need to read their history and background of their art's. most FMA's come from the visayas area. if anyone knows of what art was based on the Samar Garab, let me know. still trying to figure out how it is used.

2nd February 2005, 05:40 PM	#7
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Huun, barung taymanghud usug

4th February 2005, 12:02 AM	#8
engar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 14	Mabagani, can you speak a little about the traditional use of barong? Thanks.

4th February 2005, 08:47 AM	#10
engar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 14	Don´t worry You didn´t offend me. It´s very difficult find info about Moro fighting skills (silat, kuntao, arnis or whatever). Anyway I don´t know why but info about Luzon and Visaya weapons are very uncommon while you can found a lot of info about Moro weapons easily.