Dagger for Identification

kai · 16th February 2022, 12:05 AM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

I am with Helleri here, the attachment of the hilt with paper or textile will be a repair.

Not necessarily a repair; it could also point to an assembly at a period when these were not meant to be functional weapons anymore.

I was just mentioning it as a supporting indicator for a possible later date. (It certainly doesn't exclude a later period than suggested by me.)

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 16th February 2022, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Not necessarily a repair; it could also point to an assembly at a period when these were not meant to be functional weapons anymore.

Hello Kai,
They are still made as functional weapons I guess, I've seen 2006 a Bugis wearing a badik, near Makassar.

And I own a fairly recent example, well made but clearly used.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 10:50 PM

Detlef, my first post was #5, what I wrote was this:-

"Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this."

If others think it is a badik, and I cannot give a better name for it, I'm happy to call it badik.

But I'm equally happy to call it a "dagger" or anything else that two or more other people can agree on.

Sajen · 16th February 2022, 11:45 PM

Jep, still would call it badik and I think it's from Sulawesi. Someone will have had his own understandingo of how a badik has to look.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 20th February 2022, 06:49 PM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

They are still made as functional weapons I guess, I've seen 2006 a Bugis wearing a badik, near Makassar.

While the function as weapon never got retired, badik had the same function as keris in tanah Jawa. Thus, wearing a badik could have been due to many and possibly multiple reasons. Like for most people still carrying a knife every day nowadays, any possible weapon function is likely the least realized function (if ever)...

I was not implying that this badik got manufactured without any real use in mind. However, whenever the current tang attachment was chosen, I doubt that any heavy use (neither as tool nor as weapon) was intended. This may point to a later date but does not imply that other badik from the same period were not attached with some local sort of cutler's resin.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 21st February 2022, 07:59 AM

Kai, I've noted all your comments, it seems that I have not been particularly clear with my own comments.

I have no issue at all with whatever you or anybody else wishes to call this dagger, I have not offered a different name for it, and I will not offer one, as I have already said, I'll agree with any two people who wish to call it whatever they will. I have no stake in this, I really don't care what this dagger is called.

But the fact remains:- if it is to be called a badik, or perhaps somebody might like to call it a kawali, I have never seen a badik/kawali that looks like this dagger.

That is all I am saying.

No more, no less.

Everybody else can draw lines of similarity if they wish, I do not wish. But I'm not prepared to debate the matter. I'm offering an observation, just that.

However, there is one small matter that I must disagree with.

The badik/kawali does not & did not have the same function for the Bugis people as does & did the keris for the people of Jawa & Bali.

It has & had a similar function.

Am I splitting hairs?

No, not at all, the word "same" does mean the same as the word "similar".

16th February 2022, 10:50 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Detlef, my first post was #5, what I wrote was this:- "Yes, it has some characteristics of a badik, & I guess we need to call it a badik, but I've never seen even a photo of a badik that looks like this." If others think it is a badik, and I cannot give a better name for it, I'm happy to call it badik. But I'm equally happy to call it a "dagger" or anything else that two or more other people can agree on.

16th February 2022, 11:45 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Jep, still would call it badik and I think it's from Sulawesi. Someone will have had his own understandingo of how a badik has to look. Regards, Detlef

21st February 2022, 07:59 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Kai, I've noted all your comments, it seems that I have not been particularly clear with my own comments. I have no issue at all with whatever you or anybody else wishes to call this dagger, I have not offered a different name for it, and I will not offer one, as I have already said, I'll agree with any two people who wish to call it whatever they will. I have no stake in this, I really don't care what this dagger is called. But the fact remains:- if it is to be called a badik, or perhaps somebody might like to call it a kawali, I have never seen a badik/kawali that looks like this dagger. That is all I am saying. No more, no less. Everybody else can draw lines of similarity if they wish, I do not wish. But I'm not prepared to debate the matter. I'm offering an observation, just that. However, there is one small matter that I must disagree with. The badik/kawali does not & did not have the same function for the Bugis people as does & did the keris for the people of Jawa & Bali. It has & had a similar function. Am I splitting hairs? No, not at all, the word "same" does mean the same as the word "similar".