Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th February 2022, 07:51 PM   #1
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,194
Default

Very impressive indeed, and the panels with scenes seem OK, I have a hard time gauging from photos the quality. The overall quality seems impressive for what these are. In my opinion, based on what I have learned from others who have deeply studied Indian arms, these are most likely diplomatic or court type swords, but there lingers the potential number which were likely made as souvenirs hawked at durbars.

My comments on the examples of these swords with 'hunt scenes' should have noted, 'I personally have not seen such scenes on sword blades,but have seen the array of animal images'.
In the noteworthy quip of an esteemed colleague, "a sword with floral motif engraved on its blade, does not mean it was carried by a gardener!"

Here it seems the hunt is carried out with lances and bow and arrow, which seem more feasible weapons, while the sword (and katar) are more likely for the 'closure', as the prey is surrounded. The miniatures depicting the sword in use was more of a heroic analogy it would seem, but not saying not done with actual combat weapons.

It is interesting to see the often elaborate attention given to blades used in European hunting, which is of course much like the context of India and other cultures in its status oriented nature.

Actually the use of motifs on the European hunting hangers often had to do with various regalia and talismanic devices and symbology. The talismanic part of the motif would suggest that the dangers inherent in the hunt were of concern, and there is the prospect of invocation for success.

While clearly these cannot be equated with the scenes on these blades, it seems notable of the importance of the hunt in most cultures.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2022, 09:03 PM   #2
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,119
Default

Hunting scenes on aristocratic weaponry go back a long long way!
Attached Images
 
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2022, 09:17 AM   #3
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
... Here it seems the hunt is carried out with lances and bow and arrow ...
... and a firearm may also be seen; an interesting detail.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2022, 03:49 PM   #4
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default Texts

Speaking of Cathey's concerns that there are a great deal of images out there but not so many (supporting) texts, here is a beautiful katar with a rather comprehensive description.
I will call this link a courtesy of member Runjeet Singh, as i spotted this example in an Indian 'blog' where he signs the post. I am certain Runjeet would have certainly posted such info in here; only that he has been absent from the forum for the last few months.

https://hinducosmos.tumblr.com/post/...an-india-circa

.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2022, 12:28 AM   #5
Cathey
Member
 
Cathey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 284
Default Shikargah Tulwar

Hi Guys

Actually, it was Runjeet Singh (a fellow member of the Heritage Arms Society) that recently corrected me in relation to this sword and advised that it is a hunting sword (Shikargah) and was as the name suggests used for hunting. Runjeet has supplied some references already, however as you can see there are numerous examples out there, but detailed information is far less numerous.

The references I have found at this early stage are:
ALEXANDER David G. Islamic Arms and Armor in the Metropolitan Museum of Art Pp 219
BLACKMORE, Howard L. Hunting Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century Pp 552-553
W. G. Archer, Indian Painting in Bundi and Kotah (London, 195 9), Pls. 22, 31
EGERTON, WIBRAHIM Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms Nepal, Burma, Thailand Malaya Pp131, 132
FIGIEL, Leo S. The Dr. Leon S. Figiel Collection of Mogul Arms August 24th 1998 pp 18-19
FIGIEL Leo S. M.D. On Damascus Steel Pp 60-61
HENDLEY, Thomas Holbein Damascening on Steel Or Iron as Practise PP (II) Plate 1
HENDLEY Thomas H Memorials of the Jeyppore Exhibition 1883 Vol 1 PP 10, 11, Plate X
Nick Evangelista: The encyclopedia of the sword, published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 1995, page 537
PANT, Gayatri Nath INDIAN ARMS AND ARMOUR Volume II (Swords and Daggers) Pp 76, 78, Plate XV, Plate XVII
OSBORNE W. G. The Court and Camp of Runjeet Sing (London, 1840), p. 183.
TIRRI Anthony C Islamic Weapons Pp 207, pp 324
RICKETTS, Howard and Philipe Missillier. SPLENDOUR DES ARMES ORIENTALES Pp 125
REDDY Ravinda Arms & Armour of India, Nepal & Sri Lanka Pp 105, 354,355
STONE-G-C-Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour Pp 552-553

I now have about 8 additional books on order, one devoted to Islamic Hunting Arms so hopefully one of these will help. If anyone stumbles on anything else, please let me know.

Cheers Cathey
Cathey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2022, 03:19 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,194
Default

"...No mention has been made of Oriental swords because no swords were designed in the east solely for the hunt. "

"...The sword seen almost exclusively in Indian and Persian illustrations of the hunt is the curved talwar or shamshir, the most common of Eastern swords.
The blades of some of these are decorated with animal or hunting scenes and have been named as hunting swords 'shamshir shikargar', but nothing else distinguishes them from the rest. Judging from Indian and Persian paintings, hunters wielded them with great effect, leaning from their saddles to deliver great slashing blows which almost cut an animal in two".

"...the painting of Umed Singh, Raja of Bundi, N.India (1749-1773) in the Victoria & Albert Museum (I.S.554-1952)( shows him on horseback slicing the throat of a giant boar with his talwar, having unsuccessfully attacked it with bows and arrows. Another Bundi painting of c.1820 depicts a huntress, a lady of the court, striking down a tiger with a wide bladed tulwar".

"Hunting Weapons: From the Middle Ages to
the 20th Century"
Howard L.Blackmore
Dover edition, 2000, pp.47-48
from 1971 edition.
Clearly shamshirs and tulwars were used in hunting. The blades of some of these have the shikargar designation from the animal and hunt scenes, for which they are named hunting swords.


I searched through "The Indian Sword", Philip Rawson, 1969....but there is no mention whatsoever on shikarga, nor hunting scenes on blades etc.

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th February 2022 at 03:37 AM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.