1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[awdaniec666]

I attach some examples of turkish blades from different times.

Images 1-3: 15th century (All Topkapi Museum Instanbul)

Image 4-5: 16th - 17th century (Mueso de la real armeria, Madrid + Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Image 6: 18th century (Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Note the older the blade, the more prominent the so called "hammer" by the yelman.
Good luck in your research.

Source: W.Zablocki - Ciecia prawdziwa szabla.

[JT88]

Thanks for the responses!

Every example I can find with these type of fittings is attributed to a lancer regiment. Civilian use possibility I don’t think is very high unless the owner straight imitated the lancer regimental style. There is such a wide range of non-uniform Mamelukes attributed to both the British and French I simply don’t think it likely it’s owner imitated a lancers.

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence. Later palas have the T spine style as mine does from the 18-19th century. This yelman style is from likely the 17th century. I misspoke he believes it is 16-17th century. The swords skin itself was quite old, it had active rust on multiple locations which I removed and what appeared to be possible plating in a couple places that also had rust under it thus I removed it. I am nearly complete with it, just needs some finishing touches and I can post some better photos.

Regards

[Calien]

any sources for civilian mamelukes? I have never seen one. This one I own has no cutlers mark either and most of the early ones with oriental blade dont have them, either British or French. This is what it looked like originally (many years before it came to me) when it had the scabbard and green velvet allegedly given to the 19th lancers before they dissolved in 1821.

[Richard G]

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

[Calien]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

He was a major general, and thats the 1831 regulation mameluke for generals. When you said civilian did you mean dress uniform?

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

As Calien said that is a general, I’d like to see some purely civilian swords, not retired military.

I misspoke about fullers, yes they’re on eastern swords but I see no connection between age and fullers as you originally said.

[awdaniec666]

No, fullers do not always correlate with age. But when trying to identify something and one thing is missing which was common in a period of time, one must look for other details. As I said, another hint is the hammer on the spine of the blade just before the false edge of the yelman (the little prominent "hook"). With or without fullers, another rule of thumb seems to me, as I already said, the older the ottoman blade, the more prominent the hammer when the blade has a prominent yelman. I tried to give you help based solely on my knowledge as much as I could know. I think thats what people want when asking on a forum. Maybe I´m completely wrong. Take it or leave it.

--
I wrote a little story...
Person A shows a picture of the Titanic: Look this ship crossed the ocean in 1492.

Person B: Looks more like a 20th century ship to me. These old ships had sails. This one hasn´t.

Person A: But there were ships without sails back then, so this must be one of them.

Person B: But the circumstances differ. These old ships without sails had people in there rowing all the time and they were not meant to cross the ocean. Look here is a picture of Columbus´ship. And here is another of a Roman galley. They had no motors back then, so the architecture was different.

Person A: No.

--
Best wishes and good luck
(Image Ottoman saber, blade: 16-17th century. Other parts may be replaced, Source: Metropolitan Museum, New York)

[JT88]

From my friend Osman who wants to post but his account is not validated: “That his statement about fuller and mahmuz ( hammer ) is totally mistaken, he cant categorize ottoman swords like that your blade is not 15th thats for sure it is 17th second half but fuller or without fuller is will of owner or smith of the time. There are fullerless examples belonging to 16th century also with fuller examples as well he can look swords of Sultan Suleiman the magnificent and sword of his father Sultan Selim”

Another statement from him: “ Most blades made by Kuşkadem ( khoskadem ) are without fullers late 15th Mamluk swords are with or without fullers ( Ottoman and Mamluk swords are going parallel always and Ottoman weaponry made peak as success when Mamluk smiths moved to Ottoman Empire ) and many Sultans has swords without fullers as well as they have with so we cant standartize them into bases like ohh look this has no fuller so it is late that is nonsense and funny i am into research of these by many many years of my life and inspected more than hundreds of examples belonging from 12th to 19th centuries and saw almost all types belonging to different periods”

Pictures also from Osman

Your statement that fullers were so common that a sword without is an oddity is simply incorrect.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by JT88

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence.

You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect

[JT88]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect

Show me some with double fullers

[awdaniec666]

"Mameluke saber" is a term created in the 19th century Europe when it comes to weapons like yours.
You asked for the blade and I gave you hints and information which I have. You said fullers are a western-only thing and I just let well respected authors answer that pointing on their literature. Make of that what you wish.

[JT88]

There are fullers but they’re rare and only in very high end work, but more importantly I can’t see because you deleted it regarding fullers to age I’ve seen no indication of age = fullers.

I have the works and have read them.

[awdaniec666]

Originally Posted by JT88

Show me some with double fullers

There you go. Double fullers on Osman I saber. Founder of the Ottoman dynasty. 13th century.