African (?) knife

RobT · 17th January 2022, 06:21 PM

Hi All,

I think that Yvain's knife is very likely African. I found a website (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?a...nife&ba-page=3) which shows a group of five daggers listed as Manding. The leftmost and center daggers in the set look so much like faca de ponta that frankly, if either dagger were to be accompanied by a characteristic fdp sheath, I don't think anyone would have too much problem seeing them as Brazilian fdp. The above website has other Manding examples that look a lot like fdp. The site also shows an actual fdp and says, "This is a Brazilian so-called Faca de Ponta, around 1900, you can see here the Spanish influence in Africa as well as in South America". It should also be noted that a huge portion of Brazil's population has African ancestry, much of it Manding.

Sincerely,
RobT

Sajen · 17th January 2022, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

I think that Yvain's knife is very likely African. I found a website (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?a...nife&ba-page=3) which shows a group of five daggers listed as Manding. The leftmost and center daggers in the set look so much like faca de ponta that frankly, if either dagger were to be accompanied by a characteristic fdp sheath, I don't think anyone would have too much problem seeing them as Brazilian fdp. The above website has other Manding examples that look a lot like fdp. The site also shows an actual fdp and says, "This is a Brazilian so-called Faca de Ponta, around 1900, you can see here the Spanish influence in Africa as well as in South America". It should also be noted that a huge portion of Brazil's population has African ancestry, much of it Manding.

Hello Rob,

When you look closely you can see the differences, especially where the handle meets the visible blade. Old facas also have a thick bolster, often with brass or german silver.
But for sure you can see the influence.
BTW, the shown faca on this site is the one mentioned above.

Best regards,
Detlef

Ian · 18th January 2022, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

... When you look closely you can see the differences, especially where the handle meets the visible blade. Old facas also have a thick bolster, often with brass or German silver.
But for sure you can see the influence. ...

i agree with the differences noted by Detlef. Faca da ponta typically have a brass (yellow or white) wrapped bolster and somewhat different hilt styles to those shown from Mali, the latter showing some adaptations of the Spanish style embodied in faca. There is a class of larger 18-19th C Spanish knives, often called "Mediterranean knives," that share some similarities with the faca da ponta. These Mediterranean knives have a short, brass-wrapped bolster and come in thin brass sheaths that are highly engraved. They are not very common, but are a nicely made decorative knife. A picture is attached from the Ashoka Arts web site.

.

drac2k · 18th January 2022, 03:16 AM

Yvain, sorry about the late reply; the blade is 16" long x 2" wide with a total length of 21" long.

RobT · 18th January 2022, 08:46 PM

Sajen & Ian,

Although the bolster/ricasso feature is found on faca de ponta more often than not, it is not always present as can be seen in the top three examples from my collection and therefore can't be considered a defining characteristic. My fourth example shows a faca with a ricasso but without a brass (or silver) overlay and thus matches the African examples on Wodimi's site. It is interesting to note that, in the three faca without a bolster/ricasso, a short, thick bolster integral with the blade serves as a tip for the hilt ferrule. My faca with the ricasso has a conical shaped integral bolster at the end of the ferrule. Examination (under bright light and magnification) of the other five faca in my collection (all of which have the bolster/ricasso feature) shows only one with a short, thick, integral bolster.
PS: The brass sheath for the third faca may or may not be original to the piece but it fits perfectly.

Sajen,
When I saw your post about Wodimi's excellent site, I immediately put it into my desktop favorites folder only to discover that it was already there from a previous search I had done about the very topic we are now discussing.

Sincerely,
RobT

Yvain · 21st January 2022, 08:49 PM

Thanks for the measurements Drac2k ! And no worries, as you can see, I was away for some days too !

David, very pertinent remark, convergent evolution and perceived similarities can be very misleading in this field, especially when dealing with weapon with such strong cultural influences.

Martin, good catch with the scabbard, I can definitely see the similarities.

Anyway, I'm still digging through online museum collections, I'll let you know if I find anything. Maybe Tim could tell us more about his theory ?

Yvain · 19th July 2022, 07:08 PM

Adding some very interesting information! This is an extract from "La Collection d'armes orientales de Pierre Loti" by Stéphane Pradines, showing an extremely similar weapon! Loti's collection is well documented and we know that this knife was acquired in Senegal. Considering this, as well as the two other known examples on this forum, I think we have good reasons to consider those knives as a type in itself of Senegalese / Malika origin.

17th January 2022, 06:21 PM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 536	Don't Dismiss African Origin Hi All, I think that Yvain's knife is very likely African. I found a website (http://www.africanarms.com/gallery?a...nife&ba-page=3) which shows a group of five daggers listed as Manding. The leftmost and center daggers in the set look so much like faca de ponta that frankly, if either dagger were to be accompanied by a characteristic fdp sheath, I don't think anyone would have too much problem seeing them as Brazilian fdp. The above website has other Manding examples that look a lot like fdp. The site also shows an actual fdp and says, "This is a Brazilian so-called Faca de Ponta, around 1900, you can see here the Spanish influence in Africa as well as in South America". It should also be noted that a huge portion of Brazil's population has African ancestry, much of it Manding. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

18th January 2022, 08:46 PM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 536	Not a Consistant Feature Sajen & Ian, Although the bolster/ricasso feature is found on faca de ponta more often than not, it is not always present as can be seen in the top three examples from my collection and therefore can't be considered a defining characteristic. My fourth example shows a faca with a ricasso but without a brass (or silver) overlay and thus matches the African examples on Wodimi's site. It is interesting to note that, in the three faca without a bolster/ricasso, a short, thick bolster integral with the blade serves as a tip for the hilt ferrule. My faca with the ricasso has a conical shaped integral bolster at the end of the ferrule. Examination (under bright light and magnification) of the other five faca in my collection (all of which have the bolster/ricasso feature) shows only one with a short, thick, integral bolster. PS: The brass sheath for the third faca may or may not be original to the piece but it fits perfectly. Sajen, When I saw your post about Wodimi's excellent site, I immediately put it into my desktop favorites folder only to discover that it was already there from a previous search I had done about the very topic we are now discussing. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

19th July 2022, 07:08 PM	#7
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Adding some very interesting information! This is an extract from "La Collection d'armes orientales de Pierre Loti" by Stéphane Pradines, showing an extremely similar weapon! Loti's collection is well documented and we know that this knife was acquired in Senegal. Considering this, as well as the two other known examples on this forum, I think we have good reasons to consider those knives as a type in itself of Senegalese / Malika origin. Attached Images

18th January 2022, 03:16 AM	#4
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Yvain, sorry about the late reply; the blade is 16" long x 2" wide with a total length of 21" long.

21st January 2022, 08:49 PM	#6
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Thanks for the measurements Drac2k ! And no worries, as you can see, I was away for some days too ! David, very pertinent remark, convergent evolution and perceived similarities can be very misleading in this field, especially when dealing with weapon with such strong cultural influences. Martin, good catch with the scabbard, I can definitely see the similarities. Anyway, I'm still digging through online museum collections, I'll let you know if I find anything. Maybe Tim could tell us more about his theory ?