Fencing, Dueling and Rapiers in Spanish Colonial California

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2022, 03:40 PM

Thank you Midelburgo, wonderfully done synopsis of this very esoteric material, and important insights to the complex and mysterious practice of this type fencing system.
I have come across come of the things you mention, but your entry here greatly brings it into perspective.

From what I am finding so far, the use of the rapier (proper) was not present notably in the northern frontiers or Alta California, but there was presence of the small sword.

More research needed of course!!!
I thank you guys again for your valuable help and above all, support!

midelburgo · 14th January 2022, 05:10 PM

Actually one of the last written books for Destreza.

Principios universales y reglas generales de la verdadera destreza del espadín : segun la doctrina mixta de... (1805) - by Manuel Antonio de Brea.

was so for smallsword.

https://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/es...tro.do?id=9776

Possibly this would be the closest to El Zorro fencing manual you could find...

Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2022, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Actually one of the last written books for Destreza.

Principios universales y reglas generales de la verdadera destreza del espadín : segun la doctrina mixta de... (1805) - by Manuel Antonio de Brea.

was so for smallsword.

https://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/es...tro.do?id=9776

Possibly this would be the closest to El Zorro fencing manual you could find...

Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

Thank you again!
In a 1927 paper I found that in the northwest colonial regions of Mexico and New Mexico small swords were present, and one of the forms was colichemarde. I have yet to find more, but I suspect that small sword blades were produced in Bilbao which was a port exporting to the colonies.

kronckew · 20th January 2022, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

...
Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

I gather that Colichemardes were in general all around a metre, considereably longer than an average smallsword. George Washington is frequently painted with his favourite colichemarde.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2022, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I gather that Colichemardes were in general all around a metre, considereably longer than an average smallsword. George Washington is frequently painted with his favourite colichemarde.

Thanks Wayne,
Actually I am not certain about lengths of these blades' generality, but the initial course of their development with the widened forte for parry, and the foible remaining narrow for speed seems to have been attuned to dueling. With that being the case with the attention to the requirement for a fast blade, it seems shorter was the preference.

In the case of the forementioned colichemarde suggesting its possibly being Spanish, I would say that might be supported by the 39" blade. Spaniards favored remarkably long blades, one rapier blade I have is 41" (of traditional narrow form c. 1700), but I have heard of up to 45".

Ive heard of Washington's colichemarde, and it is noted that while these were out of favor in the civilian sector they remained popular with military through the 18th c.

kronckew · 22nd January 2022, 11:18 AM

I was referring to the overall length. Mine is just over 38 in. long, 33 inch blade.

GW's Colichemarde: Mt. Vernon collection. (Not on Display)

a hair or two over a metre long.

midelburgo · 23rd January 2022, 03:21 PM

The colichemarde in question arrived, and it had a couple of nice surprises (the original description was very poor). Indeed Spanish with two inscriptions:

M O N T E E N TOLEDO
D E P E D R O V I E L

Possibly Pedro Biel was the first owner. The blade originally was a rapier one, and only later transformed as a colichemarde. Hilt is filthy, but it could be silver. I will make pictures later.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2022, 09:05 PM

Wayne thank you so much for adding that, Washington's colichemarde, very notable! Stuart Mowbray co authored a book on Washington;s swords. It is interesting to see just how important the 'culture of the sword' remained as a point of honor long after the advent of firearms had rendered it quite 'secondary' as a weapon.

Midelburgo, very exciting on the arrival of this sword and looking forward to pics. I think your assessment on the blade is right and am curious at how a rapier blade became colichemarde considering how narrow they are.
I know a lot of rapier blades were mounted in smallswords.

When rapiers ended up in California according to some accounts, the blades were shortened. The one blade (unmounted) I have I think is about 1700, has JESUS one side MARIA the other, a Toledo mark, and about 41" long.
Found in Panama off a shipwreck.

I dont have access presently, but need to get pics of markings.

14th January 2022, 03:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Midelburgo, wonderfully done synopsis of this very esoteric material, and important insights to the complex and mysterious practice of this type fencing system. I have come across come of the things you mention, but your entry here greatly brings it into perspective. From what I am finding so far, the use of the rapier (proper) was not present notably in the northern frontiers or Alta California, but there was presence of the small sword. More research needed of course!!! I thank you guys again for your valuable help and above all, support! Attached Images

14th January 2022, 05:10 PM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Actually one of the last written books for Destreza. Principios universales y reglas generales de la verdadera destreza del espadín : segun la doctrina mixta de... (1805) - by Manuel Antonio de Brea. was so for smallsword. https://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/es...tro.do?id=9776 Possibly this would be the closest to El Zorro fencing manual you could find... Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 14th January 2022 at 05:21 PM.

22nd January 2022, 11:18 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	I was referring to the overall length. Mine is just over 38 in. long, 33 inch blade. GW's Colichemarde: Mt. Vernon collection. (Not on Display) a hair or two over a metre long. Attached Images

23rd January 2022, 09:05 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Wayne thank you so much for adding that, Washington's colichemarde, very notable! Stuart Mowbray co authored a book on Washington;s swords. It is interesting to see just how important the 'culture of the sword' remained as a point of honor long after the advent of firearms had rendered it quite 'secondary' as a weapon. Midelburgo, very exciting on the arrival of this sword and looking forward to pics. I think your assessment on the blade is right and am curious at how a rapier blade became colichemarde considering how narrow they are. I know a lot of rapier blades were mounted in smallswords. When rapiers ended up in California according to some accounts, the blades were shortened. The one blade (unmounted) I have I think is about 1700, has JESUS one side MARIA the other, a Toledo mark, and about 41" long. Found in Panama off a shipwreck. I dont have access presently, but need to get pics of markings. Attached Images

23rd January 2022, 03:21 PM	#7
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	The colichemarde in question arrived, and it had a couple of nice surprises (the original description was very poor). Indeed Spanish with two inscriptions: M O N T E E N TOLEDO D E P E D R O V I E L Possibly Pedro Biel was the first owner. The blade originally was a rapier one, and only later transformed as a colichemarde. Hilt is filthy, but it could be silver. I will make pictures later.